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Jonah Goldberg Compares VA Pamphlet to Nazi Eugenics

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Jonah Goldberg, editor-at-large of National Review Online, went on Fox News today to fan the flames of the latest fabricated "death panel" controversy.

Goldberg equated a Veterans Affairs pamphlet -- one that's reportedly no longer being used -- with Nazi eugenics, saying "death panels may not be too far off the horizon."

The pamphlet in question is one that, Fox reported this weekend, encourages disabled veterans to decide whether their lives are worth living. Tammy Duckworth, an assistant secretary of the VA, told Fox on Sunday that the department instructed VA doctors to stop using the pamphlet in 2007.

But Fox has ignored that insistence, saying soldiers returning from Iraq are given the pamphlet.

"This goes into the realm of valuing whether life is worthy of life, as the Germans used to say," Goldberg said today.

"This goes into the idea that somehow if you're in a wheelchair, if you're handicapped, if you're just too melancholy to contribute to society, well then maybe those are circumstances where you ... need to be culled from the tribe. That is the sort of thing that emanates up from this document," he said.

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August 24, 2009 11:26 AM   

And why pray tell where they not concerned about this provision in 2007?

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August 24, 2009 11:28 AM    in reply to MAT1492

Right Mike, but just remember IOKIYAR. No one thought Bush/Cheney capable of callousness or dishonesty!

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August 24, 2009 2:04 PM    in reply to MAT1492

Because when they were running the show, they were all on board to make sure it was published and passed out to all those returning disabled vets hoping they would get the hint they served their purpose and were no longer necessary. Also explains the dilapidated condition of Walter Reed too. They went into the war thinking only about a war victory and all the political gains that could be had. Causalities were expected, but who could have imagined people surviving with such debilitating injuries and then becoming a burden to society for the rest of their natural lives? The repuglicans have only room in their ranks for the victors.

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August 24, 2009 11:26 AM   

mmm, sounds like a bush program at the very least.
2007

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August 24, 2009 11:27 AM   

Stupid douche.

Didn't that ridiculous little book about fascism destroy his last shred of credibility?? Not according to FOX News, apparently....

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August 24, 2009 11:42 AM   

TPM at its best - don't let facts stand in the way.

The issue here is that this booklet has been recommended again by the VA administration as one of the options in their July 2, 2009 directive.

"Is your life worth living" is an interesting question to ask, especially of the veterans coming back from Iraq and Afganistan.

I haven't heard Golberg call it "Nazi Eugenics", but it's not the first time TPM is being very liberal with their reporting.

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August 24, 2009 11:57 AM    in reply to Lalo35adm



Who the hell . . .

. . . placed that table with a stove-pipe hat on it in the middle of the room?

~OGD~

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August 24, 2009 12:07 PM    in reply to OldenGoldenDecoy

Maybe you don't really care, but there seems to be an indisputable difference between a regular senior citizen and a war veteran when it comes to the state of mind.

So, tell me again how offering this booklet to someone who's back from the war is a good idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/13/cbsnews_investigates/main3496471.shtml

http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,184777,00.html

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August 24, 2009 12:18 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

LOL-O

Check the date:
2007
your boy Bush put this out
Not Obama
I guess i should expect you to defend Jonah Goldberg
Like minds.

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August 24, 2009 12:24 PM    in reply to jeffgee

LOL, what an idiot. Did you even read the OP here? I have to say, TPM's trolling is succeeding beyond expectations.

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August 24, 2009 2:01 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Perhaps this link will give a clearer set of facts and timeline:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/8/23/771489/-Foxs-death-book-lie

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August 24, 2009 12:22 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

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August 24, 2009 1:20 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Thank you for the links explaining why suicide by returning soldiers is a serious problem, although I don't think anyone was disputing that. The issue is whether the VA is currently providing soldiers with materials that suggest they may want to considering giving up on life. You haven't provided any evidence that it has and -- in all seriousness -- I would be very interested to see such evidence as I agree that the VA should be doing precisely the opposite, providing counseling to soldiers with the aim of preventing suicide. As it is, the fact that the only "source" for such claims is Fox News and Jonah Goldberg suggests that these are just more right-wing smears, as it fits pattern we have seen throughout the healthcare debate.

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August 24, 2009 12:20 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

Jonah??? Is that you?

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August 24, 2009 1:22 PM    in reply to Lalo35adm

I didn't read the cbs link; but I did read the one on suicides in the service you posted.
I also read the pamphlet.

First of all, your posting of an article about suicides in the military shows a callous disregard for these soldiers, as you are taking this subject to buttress an essentially political choice you are making to read into that pamphlet exactly what YOU are displaying. I'm not sure that's clear. So I will spell it out for you. The thing that is missing from all these reports we see about the suicide rate is that the defense dept has people there that could have predicted this back in 2004. The rate directly correlates with time in the theater. This was studied back in the late 1940's when it was known as combat fatigue. And that name evolved because the doctors were able to define a period of time that a soldier was kept in battle to the rate of "fatigue" after the war. In Viet Nam, they found that it was not just battle. It was being in the danger zone. Thus short periods of "leave" in Saigon did nothing. One other thing. It is cumulative. 9 months in the zone and 6 months off and then back to battle does not reset the clock. You start at 9 months. The limit for the average soldier I don't remember exactly, but I think it was about 15 months. 15 months. Try to let that sink in.
So. We now have you telling us that a pamphlet that probably is not immediately handed to a returning vet, that advises him of the utility of having a living will, which is very likely necessary given the circumstances, is going to cause this soldier to swoon and just want to kill himself. I am right now trying to think of an insult that is appropriate to you. The lack of respect, the dumbed down view of the soldier, the patronizing tone of it all. You know NOTHING of why they want to die, but that does not concern you. YOU have a point to make, and witty as you are, this seemed to be just the right jab.

A little history on the disregard vets have suffered, oh, since 2000. One of the first directives the Bush admin. made concerning the VA was with six months of being elected. It forbade directors to advise vets as to options for coverage they didn’t ask for themselves. Kind of a new slant on don’t ask, don’t tell. “We fight a war with what we have”. You remember that one don’t you. Families mailing armor to the kids because Bush had efficiencies to take care of. And then the VA hospitals themselves after too many years of Bush. And finally. Ignoring the well known limits of service time for a huge number of soldiers simply because, well why don’t YOU tell me.

I’m sorry. My opinion of the pamphlet is that it finally sows some care and compassion for these soldiers.

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August 24, 2009 11:42 AM   

I've moved from being angry about this, to being concerned about this, to being entertained by this. I think in Stage 4, I have to call all of my Republican friends that I suggested were stupid and tell them that I was right!

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August 24, 2009 11:48 AM   

For years I've been able to ignore JG, but for some reason, lately he's seriously getting to me. This guy needs to be confronted about his non-stop BS. Fox too. What's to be done about these powerful and wealthy interests stamping out democratic reform?

More and more I feel like the fight isn't between left and right, Dems and Reps, but between the powerful and the people.

Our society is messed up.

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August 24, 2009 11:53 AM   



If you wish to take the time . . .

I have posted the opening of this booklet and linked the booklet in question in PDF form from the VA website.

You can check it out in my TPM Cafe blog here . . .

~OGD~

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August 24, 2009 12:31 PM    in reply to OldenGoldenDecoy

Thank you so very much for linking the booklet. I just took 19 whole minutes to read it through and found the information very straight forward.

Typical of those liars on fixed noise, they have taken statements completely out of context and spun them to reflect their need to frighten people to maintain the status quo.

As a retired soldier, I'm happy to have this booklet at my disposal to help me make the choices I want for MY transition when it comes.

I'm easily more frightened of the lies coming out of fixed noise than I ever was of anything I faced in the 20 years I spent as a paratrooper and sapper. These liars are really dangerous.

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August 24, 2009 6:50 PM    in reply to OldenGoldenDecoy

thanks, OGD. I read the pamphlet, and copied it to my hard drive because it will help me and others I may discuss these matters with. It is a good pamphlet, for veteran, non-veteran, everyone.

I also went beyond and did some more checking on the story, which led me to some pretty interesting documents. 'Til now, I did not know that Congress (in 1990, on a bi-partisan vote in the Senate and with the older Bush in the White House) passed the "Patient Self-Determination Act of 1990", which required that all providers who accepted Medicare or Medicaid funds give their patients information on advance directives. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c101:48:./temp/~c101mZx05o:: The VA, in their "handbook" on "advance directives" - that Chris Wallace misrepresented as a "directive" - says that it took its cues to talk to all of its patients from the PSDA of 1990.

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August 24, 2009 11:53 AM   

Jeez, read the whole pamphlet last night. I can't see why they ever stopped using it. I was a hospice nurse for 15 years and decision by indecision results in far more instances of having one's own values overridden than thinking about things clearly in advance. I don't recall republicans having any special immunity to the often heart rending dilemmas that arise at the end of life. What are they thinking? In some ways its more difficult to watch the news now than it was when the crazies were in power.

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August 24, 2009 12:00 PM   

So, Let's get this straight. We're supposed to believe a "news" network that WON the "right" to lie on air in a court room in Florida?

What's always frightening about hearing anything coming out of the pie holes of these liars is that so many "good Americans" get their "news" from this pit of forked tounged snakes.

And keep an eye on the heath care reform = Nazi thing. This is a very serious line of thought used by the Domininist Christians to advance their theocratic ideologies.

Mr. Goldberg is simply a tool, and a blind tool at that.

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August 24, 2009 12:02 PM   

The next step should be for the military to reconsider their, "no soldier left behind" policy. Why bring them back from the battlefield if they will have no useful role in society, other than cannon fodder? (caution: this comment contains snark)

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August 24, 2009 12:12 PM   

Why does ANYONE listen to Jonah Goldberg? A walk through the ocean of his intellect would scarcely get your feet wet. He only has his job because his evil mother's antics made her famous during the Clinton-Lewinski affair. He has no talent, only opinions. His intellectually vapid arguments are all built on sand but Fixed News loves this doughy pantload because his arguments fit their agenda.

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August 24, 2009 12:42 PM   

Jonah is an unremarkable pantload, and you should be GLAD he's talking about this if you want better healthcare in America.

Let us return to facts. The Veterans Administration hospitals have consistently better health outcomes in all areas. They have the most sophisticated electronic health records of any system in America. Their doctors spend ZERO time memorizing ICD-9 codes or dealing with the gaggles of dishonest morons at insurance companies. They spend 100% of their time treating diabetes, heart failure, mental illness and a host of difficult diseases. What's more, their patient population has the highest rates of substance abuse, mental illness and homelessness of any health system in the country and they STILL get better outcomes for pneumonia, heart attack, drug addiction, and all the rest. They have a closed budgetary loop, only accept evidence-based medicine when prescribing drugs and recommending procedures, and STILL get better results.

They don't care about life? How about the fact that every voicemail in the VA has instructions about how to get help if you are considering suicide? They are proactively cleaning up the problems caused by Bush's Pentagon.

Veterans with private insurance are starting to DROP their private coverage and get care at the VA instead because the CARE IS BETTER with BETTER SERVICE.

Oh yes, let them do a comparison between the VA and Blue Cross' "Cancer is optional, pregnancy is not covered, your wait time is five hours for the next representative" style healthcare - they will lose, and lose badly.

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August 24, 2009 1:02 PM    in reply to tersan

Very good points. I have had 11 different healthcare plans. 8 various Private, 3 public (USAF, Canada Healthcare, and the VA). The best healthcare I have had is the VA - heads and shoulders above the rest in all aspects that seem to matter.

Moreover, the demographics of the VA population are that of older males who lean right. I have yet to meet anyone regardless of age that is not very happy with VA care. I don't think even the conservative VA clients (at least that I know) will take too kindly to this nonsense.

They are pushing the BS fear campaign into dangerous territory.

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August 24, 2009 1:34 PM    in reply to tersan

I'm interested in any links to your data as I am a regular user of the VA health system.

Having used the VA health system over the last 10 years or so I will say I continue in the process despite now having one of the better private plans (they are used in comjunction- VA bills the private plan).

But the VA system is anything but consistent. I have had some excellent medical attention at some of their teaching hosptials (particularly in Seattle), but have suffered through some horrid care at some of their other institutions (a doctor from VA Grand Rapids kept insisting I needed my spleen removed for no valid reason other than he thought it should have been removed earlier- I still have it 10 years later).

Point is, the VA system is an excelelnt model we should be using to look to for a nationalized health system: take the good, recognize and eliminate the bad, and work toward a better overall system.

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August 24, 2009 2:05 PM    in reply to alffy

@alffy, yours is a thoughtful and mature point, one born of first-hand experience. The VA is in no way perfect - the joke is that the difference between a bullet and a VA nurse is that a bullet kills you, but at least it will draw blood when you ask. That said, it's simply a good model that is intent of self-improvement. The private model is dedicated to shareholders first, and will develop in a way consistent with that dedication - every year it manufactures new loopholes and pushes sick people toward them.

Would you rather an imperfect system that functions and gets better, or a theoretically good system that sucks in practice with no incentive to improve?

Mature people try to improve reality instead of ideology.

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August 24, 2009 12:56 PM   

The question is, who do you trust more on the issue of caring for disabled veterans? Is it disabled veteran Tammy Duckworth or Jonah "I can't go to Iraq because I'm fat and I have a kid" Goldberg?

(Answer: it's Jonah Goldberg, because Tammy Duckworth is a Democrat.)

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August 24, 2009 1:31 PM    in reply to dougjNJ

exactly. what is it with the right's obsessive disdain for dems who've lost limbs in combat?

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May 17, 2010 4:23 AM   

Thank you for the links explaining why suicide by returning soldiers is a serious problem, although I don't think anyone was disputing that. The issue is whether the VA is currently providing soldiers with materials that suggest they may want to considering giving up on life. You haven't provided any evidence that it has and -- in all seriousness -- I would be very interested to see such evidence as I agree that the VA should be doing precisely the opposite, providing counseling to soldiers with the aim of preventing suicide. As it is, the fact that the only "source" for such claims is Fox News and Jonah Goldberg suggests that these are just more right-wing smears, as it fits pattern we have seen throughout the healthcare debate.

kamagra viagra

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September 9, 2010 5:29 AM   

"This goes into the idea that somehow if you're in a wheelchair, if you're handicapped, if you're just too melancholy to contribute to society, well then maybe those are circumstances where you ... need to be culled from the tribe. That is the sort of thing that emanates up from this document," he said. hairy

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