TPM LiveWire

Does Joe Wilson's "You Lie!" Charge Have Any Substance?


Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC)

Share

Twitter Facebook Fark Reddit Send to a Friend

Send to a friend!

To email:    Your Name:    Your email:

It was the shout heard 'round the world (at least the country) last night - when Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) shouted "you lie!" to President Obama during his speech on health care to a joint session of Congress. The disruption came when Obama addressed rumors that his proposed health care plan would grant coverage to illegal immigrants.

Let's check the facts behind the issue.

Here's what Obama said in his speech:

There are also those who claim that our reform effort will insure illegal immigrants. This, too, is false - the reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

It was after that statement that Wilson yelled out that Obama is a liar. The congressman later released a statement apologizing for his outburst, but holding firm that he disagreed with him.

From Wilson:

This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the President's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill. While I disagree with the President's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the President for this lack of civility.

This claim has actually been circulating around for some time, and it's not true. Nonpartisan organizations like FactCheck and PolitiFact have consistently rated it as a lie.

H.R. 3200, the House health care proposal, actually contains a section entitled "No Federal Payment For Undocumented Aliens" that essentially says "there will be no federal funds spent to cover illegal immigrants."

From PolitiFact:

We read all 1,000-plus pages of the health care bill and were struck by the fact that it is largely silent on health care for illegal immigrants. Keep in mind that experts estimated there were 6.8 million uninsured illegal immigrants in the United States in 2007, out of a total of 11.9 million illegal immigrants. Right now, most states have laws on the books that require hospitals to treat severely ill people who arrive at the hospital, regardless of immigration status, and we didn't see anything that would change those laws, either.

Most illegal immigrants are also now excluded from Medicaid, the government-run health care for the poor. We didn't see anything that would change that.

Join the Conversation!

36 comments

Recommend Recommend (2)

KZ

user-pic

September 10, 2009 9:18 AM   

Since when do facts have any relevence in Republican thinking?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:03 PM    in reply to KZ

Just like with Palin's lies, Wilson's deed is done.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 9:26 AM   

Versha,

The good news is that Miller, who is Wilson's Dem opponent for 2010, raised tens of thousands of $$$ last night - directly related to Miller's shameful outburst. I hope all here, no matter from what state, go to Miller's site and donate $5.00 (or more if able) too.

(Can you identify who is sitting on Wilson's right?)

Thanks.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 9:29 AM    in reply to Aunt Sam

do you mean Wilson's outburst, not Miller's?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 10:07 AM    in reply to jeffgee

OOPS! Thanks for catch. Of course I did mean Wilson.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 11, 2009 8:12 AM    in reply to Aunt Sam

He is not being secretly rewarded. And the reason people were having trouble accessing his website is due in part to the number of supporters donating to his campaign coffers.
Some people actually agree with Rep. Joe. In fact some of us disagree with his appology and believe he should not have cowtowed to the pressure.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 9:27 AM   

Whattya bet he'll be the hero of Fox News today. Rove and Cavuto already weighed in last night. They both thought it was hilarious.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

pol

user-pic

September 10, 2009 10:20 AM    in reply to jeffgee

That's exactly what I thought. They'll let the MSM crucify him a couple of days to take our eyes off the President's speech, then he'll be forgiven and given his own talk radio show.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 9:58 AM   

I wish this aspect of the whole stupid episode would get more play--that Wilson is in fact the liar. I know it's easy to second guess, but I think it would have been fantastic if Obama had directly challenged Wilson after his outburst to prove his assertion that illegal immigrants would get coverage under any existing bill. Wilson can't because it's a lie, and that would have made him look like an even bigger fool.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

DNS

user-pic

September 10, 2009 9:58 AM   

The AP's article this morning goes into a lot of detail re: who said what in reaction to Wilson's outburst. Not a word on whether he was right. Typical.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 10:01 AM   

Wow, TPM has degraded to the FOX News style question mark headline. Really?

"Rep. Wilson's "You Lie!" Charge Has No Merit"
"Joe Wilson's "You Lie!" Charge Has No Substance"

There, I've just done your editors job for you. And a better one at that.

Illegal immigrants being covered by health care reform is NOT a question - they aren't covered, period. The headline you've written only perpetuates the idea that there is a debate to be had. There's not.

And as a long time reader (though infrequent commenter) of TPM, it's really dissapointing to see this kind of shoddy work.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 10:12 AM   

Isn't it obvious? The Wingnut meme that will percolate to the top by the weekend will be that Obama called the GOP "liars" first (when properly pointing that the "death panels" canard was a lie) and that Wilson was simply speaking truth to power (though those words won't be used) correcting an eggregious mis-statement. I'd bet money on it.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

LFC

user-pic

September 10, 2009 10:17 AM   

Time to press Wilson on the merit of his statement "...I disagree with the President's statement...". What is your evidence? I want chapter and verse, in hard copy.

If you can't provide that immediately then "YOU LIED!"

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 10:26 AM   

"HR 3200 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS: Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Open and shut, people.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

LFC

user-pic

September 10, 2009 10:29 AM   

Interesting. Joe Wilson's Congressional web site (http://www.joewilson.house.gov/) is down. I got the following message:

Due to exceptionally high traffic, this site is temporarily unavailable. Please come back shortly.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 10:32 AM   

Wilson is not only a Representative, but an attorney. South Carolina Bar rules prohibit attorneys from lying. The text of HR 3200 is clear and unambiguous. President Obama's statement is unequivocally true.

Joe Wilson lied!

How are the Republican leadership going to handle his lie? How is the South Carolina Bar?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 10:50 AM    in reply to Strykur

Perhaps this data will shed some light on why Joe shouted out his frustrated cry:

Section 246 of the bill — dealing solely with insurance subsidies — states: “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”

Defenders of the bill frequently quote and display copies of this section at their town hall meetings.

Notice how narrow this is? It says they should not receive the bill’s new insurance subsidies. It doesn’t say they can’t receive taxpayer-paid health care. It doesn’t say they can’t receive other benefits from HR 3200, such as the expanded Medicaid.

Obama obviously wants to leave the impression that government won’t pay health care for illegals. It’s a false impression. Here are the two big fallacies with Obama’s carefully-chosen and scripted words:

* There are other avenues for illegal aliens to receive health care at public expense.

* All efforts to add enforcement language to HR3200 were defeated by mostly party-line votes. We can expect that the bureaucracy would look the other way under Obama’s control (just as it has with prior presidents).

[for instance:On July 30 of this year, a House committee voted against a Republican amendment offered by Rep. Nathan Deal that would have required health-care providers to use the Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements (SAVE) Program to prevent illegal aliens from receiving government health care services. All Republicans and five Democrats voted for it, but 29 Democrats voted against it, killing the amendment. ]

Current law says illegal aliens qualify only for emergency medical care through Medicaid. Most of these are childbirths. These costs exceed $3 billion a year. But because few states require proof of legal presence for regular Medicaid, nobody knows the true number of illegals who receive it, or at what cost.

The House bill not only makes a major expansion of Medicaid eligibility but also restricts (in Section 1702) inquiries about immigration status. Efforts to fix this and to add enforcement provisions to HR 3200 were offered in the Ways & Means Committee by Rep. Dean Heller (R-Nev.) and in the Energy & Commerce Committee by Rep. Nathan Deal (R-Ga.), but voted down. No Democrats supported Heller. Blue Dog Representatives Mike Ross (D-Ark.), Jim Matheson (D-Utah), Charles Melancon (D-La.), John Barrow (D-Ga.), and Baron Hill (D-Ind.) voted for the Deal proposal.

So we still have the problem as described by Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas) in his op-ed for The Hill:

H.R. 3200 contains gaping loopholes that will allow illegal immigrants to receive taxpayer-funded benefits. And these loopholes are no accident. The legislation contains no verification mechanism to ensure that illegal immigrants do not apply for benefits. Republicans offered an amendment to close this loophole — it would have required verification using the existing methods that are already in place to verify eligibility for other federal benefits programs. But, when they were asked to put the language of the bill where their words were, in a party-line vote, House Democrats rejected the amendment to require verification and close this loophole.

Our media, unfortunately, don’t seem to understand. They persist in an Obama-friendly minimal analysis, saying simplistically that the bill excludes coverage for illegal aliens. For example:

• A recent Associated Press story devoted to “myth vs. fact” states simply, “THE FACTS: The proposals being negotiated do not provide coverage for illegal immigrants.”

• The website Factcheck.org claims it is “false” that “illegal immigrants will be covered.”

• Consumer Reports calls it “the myth that will not die.”

Those media evidently believe government can magically exclude illegals even in the absence of a screening system.

But history shows our social welfare bureaucracy is quite adept at finding loopholes to help illegal aliens. One example is food stamps.

Federal regulations [7 CFR 273.4 (b)] explicitly require that immigration authorities must be notified if they learn that an illegal alien is within a household applying for Food Stamps.

However, a “Catch 22” was created by the Clinton administration. In an “Interagency Notice (65 Fed. Reg. 58301, Sept. 28, 2000), bureaucrats were told that unless a person has already had a hearing and been formally determined to be an illegal immigrant, no government agency really “knows” that they are illegal — so they need not be turned in.

It’s just another example of how laws are bypassed when it comes to illegal immigration.

Only if you believe that our immigration laws are well-enforced can you believe that HR 3200 will not expand public benefits for illegal aliens.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:18 PM    in reply to claire

You know what? I'm tired of this "I got mine" shit. And I'm starting to get tired of Democrats' only argument being "we don't want to cover the Mexicans either." What the hell happened to humanity in this country!?

Three billion dollars, huh? So that's $10 per person. So you want to save your ten bucks and let illegal* Mexican women (or their soon-to-be-US-citizen children) die in childbirth. Inspector Javert, is that you?


*Illegal. This is the root of it all. How did your ancestors get over here? With a visa? Mine sure as hell didn't. They came without invitation and killed off the native population. Frankly, I find the idea that anyone in this country is "illegal" a laughingstock, not to mention a moral outrage. "Give us your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free..." ...as long as they aren't slightly darker-skinned than we are and speak Spanish.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 2:32 PM    in reply to claire

What you are saying--and this is now what Wilson is saying-- that if doctors and nurses and hospital do not ask everyone to see a copy of their birth certificate before treatment then we're paying for undocumented people's health care.

That's the society you wanna live in? Let me see your papers. Because you have to ask everyone, not just the brown skinned folks. Some of them Canadians sneaking over the border to get some of our grade A medicaid are pretty tricky.

Undocumented aliens are not allowed to enroll in Medicaid nor Medicare. Births of US citizens are of course paid for. yes I know it burns you oh so white soul up to know that those little brown folks sneaking across the border are giving birth to US citizens, but it's true.

Here's hoping you break your leg in Mexico and are left to rot in the street.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 12, 2009 12:17 AM    in reply to Economides

You are ask for your insurance card so why not some sort of proof
of citizenship. They already have a system of checking all legal citizens. All they have to do is type in a SS # or name and DOB and it only takes about 15 seconds to verify. Use what we have and don’t worry about creating new costly programs to take care of the ones that need and qualify under the law.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 11:00 AM   

In other words, Claire, you're complaining that the bill does not overturn decades of standard practice and explicitly shoe-horn in a provision that outlaws hospitals from treating illegals who show up on their doorsteps.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

LFC

user-pic

September 10, 2009 11:08 AM    in reply to hoehneb

Hey, hoehneb, I imagine at this point that the Repubs would claim that Obama wanted to provide health insurance to illegals if he signed a bill designating "National Dragonfly Day" and it didn't contain explicit provisions to that effect.

Claire pulls the typical Republican stunt. If something doesn't spell out exactly what they want, even when there's no freaking reason to do so, then Obama will do this and that and the other. It's a classic case of "IF A, THEN Z".

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 11:16 AM   

In an era of widespread swine flu, does it make any sense to want immigrants to go without medical coverage? My gosh, what happens if all the illegal aliens working for republicans get swine flu and then go on to threaten the health of their employers?! Real people might get sick!!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 11:31 AM   

The debate here is simply *who* lied about *what.* I claim that Joe has a case against Obama-because there is an admitted dilemma in our country with emergency rooms overwhelmed by illegals -- and O's proposals do nothing to fix that - they may even make the tax burden worse. For instance:

The Congressional Research Service (CRS) said this about H.R. 3200, the Obamacare bill, approved just before the recess by the House Energy and Commerce Committee chaired by Rep. Henry Waxman, D-CA:
"Under H.R. 3200, a 'Health Insurance Exchange' would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option…H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens—whether legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently—participating in the Exchange."

CRS also notes that the bill has no provision for requiring those seeking coverage or services to provided proof of citizenship. Thus it would grant illegal immigrants greatly expanded access to medical care. Indeed, the provisions in Section 1702 of the bill could allow them access to 100% taxpayer subsidized non-emergency medical care.

Regarding the CRS : from their website:

"The Congressional Research Service (CRS) works exclusively for the United States Congress, providing policy and legal analysis to committees and Members of both the House and Senate, regardless of party affiliation. As a legislative branch agency within the Library of Congress, CRS has been a valued and respected resource on Capitol Hill for nearly a century."

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:27 PM    in reply to claire

Total B.S. They could buy insurance on the exchange. So what? They can buy a book at the bookstore. They can buy breakfast at the diner. They can buy life insurance. They can buy homeowners insurance.

The key point that you're missing is that they would not be eligible for subsidies. The rest of us are better off if they DO buy insurance, because then they would be paying their way into the risk pool and getting routine care rather than relying on charity care at emergency rooms.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 2:35 PM    in reply to Ann Arbor

You can't argue with a bigot.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:29 PM    in reply to claire

Claire,

You are simply wrong. Go to factcheck of polifact. Both rule that claim as false.

It is true that illegal aliens may be able to buy in to the public option--but that doesn't prove your point. They would get no public subsidies, and it would be no different than their buying private insurance right now.

What is so upsetting in the current atmosphere is how right wing nut cases make easily provable lies, and then, rather than denouncing them, other right wingers start the bizarre process of rationalization.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 11:32 AM   

Claire, you are right. Also, the government should stop building roads, because illegal immigrants will drive on them.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:22 PM   

I have worked in Government for over 14 years and they have a saying
( If it isn't on paper then it doesn't exist) So put it in the
bill that Illegal immigrants can not receive any benefits and will be
deported ASAP. Also anyone that houses an illegal will be disqualified
from any assistance as well.

I'm tired of my tax dollars being flushed down the drain.
I also believe that any bill that is passed should be forced on ALL Politicians. If its good enough for us then it should be good enough
for them as well. I believe in helping anyone but a leach is a leach
and illegal immigrants and politicians are the biggest ones we have
in the US On both sides of the isle. I voted Democratic but I’m still
upset with this and I will not vote for any party that aggress with
this bill as it stands.
All they are trying to do now is suck up to the people and get
another term in office !!!

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:32 PM    in reply to Ticked Off Voter

>>So put it in the
bill that Illegal immigrants can not receive any benefits and will be
deported ASAP. Also anyone that houses an illegal will be disqualified
from any assistance as well.

It is in one of the bills. Your idea that people who house illegal aliens should be denied insurance is both stupid and against the whole idea of the bill to begin with. Keep the hate up, though--as if we haven't seen enough of that.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:40 PM    in reply to Ticked Off Voter

Um... to quote harksaw above:

"HR 3200 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS: Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 1:02 PM    in reply to Ticked Off Voter

>>I believe in helping anyone but a leach is a leach
and illegal immigrants and politicians are the biggest ones we have
in the US On both sides of the isle.

Yes, according to this logic, you know who else is a leach? Anyone who works for the government, including yourself! If you work for the government (which is a perfectly okay, in my opinion), don't start spouting reactionary, right wing rhetoric.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 11, 2009 11:48 PM    in reply to phthenry57

No it isn’t in the bill the bill if you would read it (it says that no one in the US illegal would be eligible under the new bill) They have been under all of the old ones and they are still going to stand there for they will be eligible to be covered under the bills that are in effect now. This one does not replace any of them.

Next if you are housing an illegal then you are breaking the law and shouldn’t be allowed to receive any benefits as long as you continue to break the law.
As far as spreading hate I don’t see any hate in anything I said. How is it hate if I mention that the law should be enforced as written.
If I come on your property with out your permission that’s trespassing and I can be arrested. Illegal Immigrants are criminals as soon as they cross into the US. Wake up and educate yourself on the law. For you information I voted democratic in all of our local elections except one and I knew the guy for many many years and didn’t think he would be good for the job so don’t call me right or left wing


I said I worked in government.. not that I'm still in it I retired in 2005 but the branch I was in was law enforcement and what little pension I get is barely enough to live on These days. I said politicians not government workers.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:40 PM   

All the fact check organizations have rated this latest nonsense about illegals a lie, and I believe them. The fact that a supposedly literate, intelligent, educated man like Wilson would buy into the Rush Limbaugh/Glen Beck nonsense is just depressing.

So who told him to do that? And is he being secretly rewarded?

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 12:43 PM    in reply to Snarky

I don't think he's being rewarded, it made the Reps look like desperate buffoons. They began backpedaling immediately.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

September 10, 2009 1:09 PM   

Funny that conservatives are so anxious for illegal aliens to be treated differently under the law. Are these the same conservatives who constantly claim that our laws should be based on "Judeo-Christian values"?

If you read the Bible you will find, over and over again, the injunction to welcome strangers, and more particularly, to treat them the same as anyone else under the law.

Here's just one of many similar examples:

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." Exodus 12:49

Just Google "kjv native stranger" for other examples.

This injunction appears repeatedly--much more frequently, incidentally, than the lines against sodomy that we hear so much about from conservatives.

Reply | Flag Abuse

Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?

Leave a comment

Your response:

Follow us!

Most Popular