In the Senate Finance Committee debate on health care reform this afternoon, Sen. John Ensign (R-NV) brought up what he thought was a very good point: If you don't count injuries from guns or car accidents, the U.S. health care system actually provides better outcomes than those in European and other industrialized countries.
"Are you aware that if you take out gun accidents and auto accidents, that the United States actually is better than those other countries?" Ensign said. Sen. Kent Conrad (D-ND) had been citing the health care systems of France, Germany, Japan and Canada as more effective, but with lower costs.
Conrad responded that one can bend statistics in all sorts of ways.
"But that doesn't have anything to do with health care. Auto accidents don't have anything to do with h--," Ensign said, cutting himself off. "I mean we're just a much more mobile society. ... We drive our cars a lot more, they do public transportation. So you have to compare health care system with health care system."
Video after the jump.
Late update: We tracked down where Ensign got his argument. It's none other than Betsy McCaughey, the first to say government health care would lead to forced euthanasia.

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greylox
September 29, 2009 1:00 PM
**Obviously Ensign is still thinking with his "other" brain.
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Schmed
September 29, 2009 1:03 PM in reply to greylox
You mean the one he's sitting on?
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mastershake1
September 29, 2009 1:04 PM
Obviously what Ensign means is that REAL Americans don't get into car accidents or get shot. That's only what happens to godless heathen urban Americans.
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Schmed
September 29, 2009 1:06 PM in reply to mastershake1
...who "do public transportation."
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jenzinoh
September 29, 2009 1:31 PM in reply to Schmed
"who do public transportation"
Which Ensign is against...
I like how he calls people shooting people "accidents"... I mean, you pointed at someone at pulled the trigger, and oops! You shot them... Somewhere there is a defense attorney ready to call Ensign to the stand to testify that all gun murders and assaults are "accidents".
What a maroon....
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henk
September 29, 2009 2:48 PM in reply to jenzinoh
Well, there is the drinking quail hunting type accident. You stop for lunch, have a few drinks then shoot your friend and hunting partner in the face. He apologizes later for getting in your way. I think its called hunting with Dick.
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billyshake
September 29, 2009 1:06 PM
When Ensign had the floor, he again hammered away on this point, saying that we have a higher survivor rate amongst cancer patients than Canada or Britain. What he quite easily (and cockily) ignored with his pithy little country flag bar graph was that he's comparing the survival rates of ALL citizens in Canada and the UK with ONLY THE INSURED among Americans. Fancy math, that.
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billyshake
September 29, 2009 1:10 PM in reply to billyshake
P.S. Bless C-Span's online feed. It's 10:40 at night here in India, but I feel like I'm right there with you cats.
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tjw
September 29, 2009 2:46 PM in reply to billyshake
> he's comparing the survival rates of ALL citizens in Canada and the UK with ONLY THE INSURED among Americans. Fancy math, that.
Basically, all we need to do is either shoot or crash our cars into the uninsured and we will have the best healthcare in the WORLD. Well, unless you count cost, then our system pretty much sucks.
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lousgirl84
September 29, 2009 2:59 PM in reply to tjw
ROFL I know this is serious business, but that was a very amusing post. Thanks
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MaximumBob
September 29, 2009 1:06 PM
Sounds to me like Ensign is arguing for significant gun control laws as well as a heavy gas tax to pay for better public transportation!
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_jonny_5_
September 29, 2009 2:06 PM in reply to MaximumBob
Your first mistake was to take a GOP talking point to its logical conclusion...
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leoklein
September 29, 2009 2:31 PM in reply to MaximumBob
+1
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Economides
September 29, 2009 1:07 PM
Beside the bizarre spectacle of a freedom loving republican admitting that our love of guns and the open road with no speed limits kills way more people than in any other country...his factual claim is false.
His claim comes form a BS study by a couple guys at AEI. OECD disputes it and the authors even admit what they were doing is not what Mr. Ensign claims
Here's a source (WSJ):
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/08/25/violence-traffic-accidents-and-us-life-expectancy/
Follow the link in that article to the OECD text (it's a google book text image, scroll down to the footnote) that completes the take down of Ensign's lie.
Big surprise, dude who cheats on his wife turns out to be an excellent liar.
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Economides
September 29, 2009 1:12 PM in reply to Economides
On a side note, it's somewhat depressing to see Democrats unable/unwilling to dispute the many factual fabrications (sourced almost entirely from right-wing advocacy orgs such as the WSJ OP-ed page, Heritage, AEI) that are being used with great predictability by Ensign, Kyl, Grassley and company.
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commie atheist
September 29, 2009 1:23 PM in reply to Economides
From your link it turns out that Betsy McCaughey also helped to spread this bullshit talking point around. Why am I not surprised?
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nerox3
September 29, 2009 2:59 PM in reply to Economides
Thanks Economides, I chcked out the report by Ohsfeldt and Scheneider you refer to. They took a bunch of statisics and plugged them into a math package to come up with a regression model for life expectancy based on their selected statistics.
LifeExp = 50.78 + 3.02log(GDP per citizen) - 0.077(traffic accident rate) -0.137("accidental fall" death rate) -0.133(Homicide rate) - 0.0326(suicide rate)+year effect
The regression is very heavily influenced by the outlier for homicides, GDP and transportation death rate (ie., the USA). Of course they could have used other statistics, say Garth Brooks album purchases per citizen and come up with a regression that said accounting for the Garth Brooks album purchases the USA has the highest life expectancy. They did not show how robust this regression is but once you are doing regressions with 6 degrees of freedom with a significant outlier you can make the model do just about anything by choosing the form of your model and the parameters.
So to sum up, their results indicate life expectancy is related to GDP and other factors. If you remove those other factors, since the US has the highest GDP it should have the highest life expectancy.
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NobleCommentDecider
September 29, 2009 2:15 PM in reply to Economides
From the link:
Back in 2007, Ohsfeldt told the WSJ that he and Schneider were “not trying to say that these are the precisely correct life-expectancy estimates. We’re just trying to show that there are other factors that affect life-expectancy-at-birth estimates that people quote all the time.”
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leoklein
September 29, 2009 2:48 PM in reply to Economides
Schneider also leaves a comment on the WSJ Blog post. Part of it reads:
http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2009/08/25/violence-traffic-accidents-and-us-life-expectancy/
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rbeats
September 29, 2009 1:08 PM
Yeah and if we take out sexually transmitted diseases our country would not have any real need for health care at all. Right John?
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out of the loop
September 29, 2009 1:10 PM
Am I missing something here? Is Ensign making an argument against the accessibility of guns and the accidents they cause? Is he saying that guns kill rather than people who kill?
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Partisancheese
September 29, 2009 2:54 PM in reply to out of the loop
apparently so. all we need to do as a country then--in order to have an equally great health care system--is to opt for tighter gun control and more public transportation. then we can honestly forget about the whole to-reform/not-to-reform debate. golly, why didn't i think of that? thanks Ensign.
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billyshake
September 29, 2009 1:12 PM
"...car accidents and gun deaths...because, we Americans love our guns..." said Ensign with a funny little grin on his face. Can I just say, he's a fucker.
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Powkat
September 29, 2009 3:08 PM in reply to billyshake
you just did.
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Savannah Evans
September 29, 2009 1:12 PM
I like Ensign's formula. Let's see if I can duplicate: If you took out fans of Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, the average IQ in the United States would be triple that of any other country.
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Dogger
September 29, 2009 1:14 PM in reply to Savannah Evans
And if you ignored the contributions of Ensign and his fellow Republicans, the Senate would look much smarter as well.
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Barry Ragin
September 29, 2009 1:16 PM
You know, i don't think Jon Stewart is even going to have to add any commentary when he runs this clip tonight.
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billyshake
September 29, 2009 1:19 PM in reply to Barry Ragin
Yeah, Ensign has no idea how idiotic he just looked...and probably won't figure it out anytime soon. But we have video....sweet, sweet video. :)
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lousgirl84
September 29, 2009 3:01 PM in reply to billyshake
If only the MSM would play this over and over again, but I'll wager a bet that it is only going to be mentioned on MSNBC.
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freivogel
September 29, 2009 1:25 PM
One thing he doesn't mention is the frequency of train wrecks in the United States vs. other countries. Let's see, there's Ensign/his parents, Vitter, Mark Foley, Jim Traficant, William Jefferson.
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synchronicity
September 29, 2009 1:25 PM
Ensign... Ignorant and proud of it!
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Xantar
September 29, 2009 1:27 PM
Also consider that if you can get your parents to pay for your medical expenses, then you won't go bankrupt from illness!
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thomas1
September 29, 2009 1:42 PM in reply to Xantar
and if you can get your parents to pay-off your mistress you won't have to tell you wife.
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ohyeathatsright
September 29, 2009 1:28 PM
I don't understand how that precludes the need for healthcare. My guess is there are a lot of gun owners out there that can't afford healthcare when they shoot themselves. And accidents are even worse since multi-car collisions are often caused by just 1 driver.
Explain this Ensign.
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wyt
September 29, 2009 1:37 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright
The reason to have a gun is to shoot yourself when appropriate - or your family members. As a Darwinian, I have to say shooting family members is harsh, but often evolutionarily appropriate. If we provide all of those without health insurance with guns, then if they get too sick they can just shoot themselves - or family members. The other option, of having them kill themselves by driving their cars into things, simply causes too much collateral damage.
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kalimuzo
September 29, 2009 1:28 PM
You know if we took out heart disease, because we have a different diet than Europeans, we would definately be the leader in health care.
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IMNOTBITTER
September 29, 2009 1:31 PM
And if you take all the under achieving students from schools....WOW our school system would be the best in the world
And if you took all the homeless people out and shot them......WOW no more homeless people in America!!!!!
I think Ensign is on to something here...in a Fascistic sort of way!
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SkepticRising
September 29, 2009 1:32 PM
Isn't that exactly the strategy of the health insurance industry? Ignore all the sick people and the ones that are left are healthy - and profitable.
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Vinson
September 29, 2009 1:32 PM
To Economic...
GREAT flag - that WSJ article and link to the footnote from the OECD study. And YES, very disconcerting that the Dems didn't do their homework to slap down the lies these folks throw out there. Because, on the face of it, when I heard Ensign bring up those stats, I was like, "Well, that makes sense. Gee - I had never heard of that!"
WTF!
Vinson
Consilience Productions
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jt307
September 29, 2009 1:34 PM
This should be of little surprise. It appears to be the same math formula they use to determine the lack of need for troop withdrawals in Iraq/Afghanistan. Subtract all soldiers injured by IED's, subtract soldiers injured by opposition fire, subtract friendly fire incidents leading to death. And our troops have an outstanding survival rate with far fewer dying from natural causes on the battlefield than their stateside counterparts.
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IMNOTBITTER
September 29, 2009 1:38 PM
And if you take out adultery as a reason for divorce in america...why our divorce rate would be unbelievably lower then Europe!
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Bass Ace
September 29, 2009 1:45 PM
At last, a solution to the horrible infant mortality rate in this country!
We've just got to quit letting these tiny babies drive and have guns!
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IMNOTBITTER
September 29, 2009 1:46 PM
Why does he refer to it as "Gun Accidents" is he talking about the amount of people who are injured by gun confrontations or are there really a lot of stupid gun owners out there shooting each other in ....the ......face..............when.....they go bird........hunt.....never mind!
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fcleff
September 29, 2009 1:50 PM
Wow. Why wasn't there uproarious laughter coming from the gallery? That anything this shamed politician says is taken seriously just baffles me.
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IMNOTBITTER
September 29, 2009 1:56 PM
And if you take out adultery as a reason for divorce in america...why our divorce rate would be unbelievably lower then Europe!
Oh how I wish Conrad had said this as a retort to this blown dry blowhard! That would have been so sweet and probably would have shut Ensign up for the rest of the day!
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cwnidog
September 29, 2009 2:04 PM in reply to IMNOTBITTER
And if you don't count Republican politicians, the adultery rate would go down dramatically!
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GeorgeTheShrubber
September 29, 2009 2:34 PM
Like chickmagnet slushfund payer Ensign just stated with his ineloquent plea for better gun control, I have always believed that the fact that Merca is awash in guns is one reason why our straining healthcare system is getting financially kicked in the nuts. To remedy this situation, we should make gun purchasing easier for all Mercans. Especially for the higher powered handguns. If less people survive a gunshot, less strain on healthcare. Simple.
And Ensign's takedown of our socialist road system is spot on. If we did away with our road system, we'd have less people driving and consequently, less people would be hurted. For example, the less driving my wife does, the better.
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red cabbage
September 29, 2009 2:45 PM
If you "take out" the things Senator Ensign says and the beliefs he holds, he is probably our greatest Senator.
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pv2k
September 29, 2009 2:52 PM in reply to red cabbage
Or if you "take out" the 99 other senators, Ensign would be the greatest!
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AJM
September 29, 2009 2:52 PM
Shorter Ensign: Too many gun deaths in America! Down with the Second Amendment!
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Apphouse50
September 29, 2009 3:07 PM
Well, lessee now. Out at:
http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/geographic/world/mortality/?a=5441
...we see that North America has the highest rate of cancer deaths. Ensign would likely say that Canada is the culprit here. But not so fast, John:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems#Cancer
Had I the time I'd go further with this -- obviously cancer's not the only thing that knocks folks off. And depending on what you look at, we may be higher or lower than Canada in specific types of cancer.
But if Ensign hasn't checked the Central Intelligence World Factbook on US longevity, infant mortality, and more, someone oughta clue him into it so he could avoid at least one possible way of making a total ASS out of himself.
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Apphouse50
September 29, 2009 3:13 PM
And by the way, John, Nevada beats out the rest of the country in a number of categories as to cancer incidence:
http://apps.nccd.cdc.gov/uscs/Table.aspx?Group=5f&Year=2005&Display=n&Variable1=Nevada
...and I'm just gettin' started.
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FelixCulpa
September 29, 2009 3:15 PM
Thatcher said, "A man who, beyond the age of 26, finds himself on a bus can count himself as a failure."
However
@ 51 if your parents are still paying off your mistresses you know you have arrived.
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brianm0122
September 29, 2009 3:37 PM
Does he understand that he is making an argument for public transportation AND gun control?
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tersan
September 29, 2009 4:04 PM
Everybody took the head fake and missed the punchline: Ensign is LYING about the U.S. being ahead of Europe on chronic disease. We're around #30 for health outcomes, irrespective of car accidents. He's lying, ignorant, and wrong in every word he speaks.
It's like Bill O'Reilly claiming the Netherlands is more dangerous, when they have about 20% of our violent crime per capita. He says, "But it's a small country!" banking that his viewers don't understand math, either.
They are all liars.
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tezcat
September 29, 2009 5:56 PM
But there's an upside to all those guns and cars. I've heard (but cannot verify) that in the USA there is a higher availability of donor organs compared to Canada because of the greater number of gunshot and car accident deaths.
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