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Finger Biting Victim Speaks -- To A Reverent Neil Cavuto

Ben Frumin | September 3, 2009, 5:02PM

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The anti-reform finger biting victim wouldn't speak to us here at TPM. But he would speak to FNC's Neil Cavuto just moments ago.

William J. Rice, 65, verified much of the story we've pieced together today. The pro-reform biter -- who Rice called "a deranged individual" -- had words with Rice at a small anti-reform demonstration across the street from a large pro-reform rally in southern California last night.

Rice said the pro-reformer called him an idiot, to which Rice responded with a punch. Rice said he also threw a second punch, which landed in the man's mouth. Then, "a scuffle ensued and he ate my finger in the process."

Here's where things get a little weird. The AP, citing a hospital spokesperson, reported earlier that Rice's finger was reattached -- courtesy of Medicare. But Rice now says that he was told that because of "the bacteria involved in a human bite, the chances of it surviving a reattachment were almost zero." Goodbye, pinky.

Rice said he left the severed digit at the hospital. "I thought about maybe bringing it home and having it bronzed and wearing it around my neck," he kind of joked.

Cavuto called Rice a cult hero who gave an appendage in the cause of protest. "I'm no hero," Rice said. "The heroes are in Afghanistan and Iraq right now." Rice later added that "freedom is not free."

Rice also said he won't sue, he'll turn and run if he sees the biter again, and that he thinks there's "something much more devious than health care" at play in our national debate. "I think health care is how we are being diverted while the government grabs what's left of our freedom away from us."

To be fair, Rice added a few minutes later that "I'm medicated right now."

Late Update: We've talked to the hospital, and resolved the apparent confusion over whether Rice's pinky was reattached or not. It was not.

Later Update: Here's the video from Rice's TV appearance.

Join the Conversation!

65 comments

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September 3, 2009 5:21 PM

I can reattach that finger for a buck o' five Mr. Rice.

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September 7, 2009 2:17 AM in reply to rbeats

The important thing is if you punch someone in the face, knocking them down in the street, then punch them in the face a second time and the guy bites you when you jam your finger in his mouth, Cavuto used his nationwide television megaphone to say he's on your side and wants to hunt down the man who was attacked. So if Cavuto is, say, at a restaurant or on a sidewalk, and you walk up and pop him in the face once, then twice, and hurt your hand in the process, hey, call the police and have Cavuto arrested.

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September 3, 2009 5:22 PM

Have you seen the hack job write up on this over st the weekly standard? TPM is mentioned and you should probably take them to task since they never mentioned that AP first reported the finger was re-attached. Oh wait... they don't use the facts.

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Walter Mitty

September 3, 2009 5:27 PM

So calling somebody an idiot is right to punch them twice according to the police. Now this guy says his second punch got caught up in the other guys mouth and a scuffle ensued. Now why isn't it self defense to bite down of somebody who already punched you in the face twice has his hands in your mouth? Ever hear of "fish hooking"?

I bet the police officer is a birther.

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September 3, 2009 6:14 PM in reply to Walter Mitty

Its not self defense to bite off someone's finger even if they punched you and the finger is in your mouth. You take the finger out of your mouth, you don't bit it off. For self-defense, you need to use the least amount of force necessary to protect yourself. Rice may be an idiot but the guy who bit off his finger is even worse. Dont try to justify biting off fingers.

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Walter Mitty

September 3, 2009 6:36 PM in reply to richard f

Yeah, so if a guy's punched you in the face twice and you're now locked up scuffling with each other, you now have to quit grabbing on whatever you are holding on him, ie maybe his free arm/hand that he's trying to beat on you with in order to gently take the mans hand out of your mouth.

It was self-defense from a violent attacker.

The guy shouldn't have crossed the road to confront the counter-protest. However Rice shouldn't have started attacking the man because he was simply called an idiot.

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September 3, 2009 6:50 PM in reply to Walter Mitty

Rice was wrong to punch the guy if all that happened was that he was called an idiot (and committed a crime by doing so).. The biter committed a felony by biting the guy's finger off even if Rice's finger was in his mouth. It's not self-defense - its not even close. Even if he found the finger in his mouth as a result of Rice throwing the punch (a scenario I find hard to believe since you don't throw punches with extended fingers), and even if he was somehow justified in biting down on that finger in order to get Rice to stop, you don't have to bit the finger off. Do you know how hard you have to chomp down to sever a digit?. I find it hard to believe that you are justifying this behavior.

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September 3, 2009 7:06 PM in reply to richard f

True. But where does Rice get off ADMITTING that he punched first, yet saying HE won't sue?

The chances are unlikely he would; but the "biter" has a counter-suit if he did.

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Thucydides Junior

September 3, 2009 7:11 PM in reply to richard f

As I have said before, you have no idea about a fight. You've never been in one. It's a fight, not an exercise in logical outcomes. Geesh.

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September 3, 2009 7:27 PM in reply to Thucydides Junior

I've been in a fight or two. I've never bitten off somebody's finger. If the biter had gouged out his eyeballs, would you still be justifying it because he was in a fight?

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September 3, 2009 8:21 PM in reply to richard f

**If he stuck his eyeballs on my fingers, then YEAH! This old guy stuck his hand in the guy's mouth, for cripes sake. No excuse for that.

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Larry Geater

September 4, 2009 9:23 AM in reply to richard f

If that is the force that it took to make the guy stop attacking, you bet!

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Walter Mitty

September 3, 2009 7:27 PM in reply to richard f

You shouldn't find it hard to believe I'm justifying it because it is self-defense. If the biter is tracked down and charged, if he has a half-decent lawyer he'll get off.

This isn't a case where one man was pointing at the other and the guy chomped down on his finger, the man had struck him twice and they were struggling/wrestling when the mans finger ended up in the others mouth. As I have said above "fish hooking" is not uncommon and can result in serious damage.

Rice said himself that he punched the guy twice because the guy called him an idiot. He said he cracked him once on the nose and the second punch was where his hand ended up in the guys mouth.

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ohyeathatsright

September 3, 2009 7:36 PM in reply to richard f

So you're expecting him to do physics and pressure calculations while he's getting punched repeatedly in the face?

Let's see, there is a finger in my mouth, how hard to I have to bite to cause pain, but not to sever the finger. I need this person to stop physically attacking me, but I don't want to be on the hook for a felony mayhem charge.

Lets see, it takes about 460 PSI to puncture skin...although it depends on what I'm puncturing with...

The strongest measured human bite pressure is just over 250 LBs...damn now I have to convert units...

How much surface area contact do I have with that finger in my mouth?

...carry the 1...

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September 3, 2009 10:01 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright

Right. Easy for someone who has never been attacked by a bigger guy, been scared shitless, and pumped with adreneline while being pummled about the head and shoulders to talk about "proportionality". If I'm that guy, I don't know if you are gonna kick me to death if I fall down or give me a brain hemorrhage with another punch.

If you don't attack me (physically), there'll be no fight. If you do, I'm gonna do my level best to take you out. If that involves a broken kneecap, collapsed windpipe, gouged eye, busted eardrum or any other quick mayhem I can perform - you asked for it.

I've been sucker-punched by some irate neanderthal, you see. It leaves you stunned, barely able to see sometimes, and takes away about 90% of your capacity to defend yourself. In a case like that, you don't know whether others in the crowd will join in the attack - or how far your attacker is willing to go. Ever seen an unconscious individual repeatedly kicked in the head? I have. (I intervened as quickly as possible - but not before several potentially deadly kicks were delivered.)

My hat's off to the guy who bit off the finger. I'd have done the same if necessary.

I'll readily admit, however, that I'd have never been in that particular altercation, not being stupid enough to cross the street and confront a group of thugs like that. Some people naively think that freedom of speech is protection from thuggery. I was disabused of that notion in the 60s.

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September 4, 2009 2:29 AM in reply to uneasyone

I'd like to hear from an attorney about this. It's not at all clear to me what is acceptable self-defense and what is not. And I suspect that it varies by jurisdiction.

Although I do have some ideas about what is reasonable. A "comparable level of violence" seems right but, as you and others argue, in practice it's probably unrealistic. In particular, it seems to me that a better standard would be something like the minimum amount of violence to be effective in context. That is to say, a very large and capable fighter would have many more options for a reasonable response than would a small and less competent fighter.

And, really, think about the case of firearms. If the standard were absolute and not contextual, then the only justification for using a firearm would be as a response to another firearm or something comparably lethal. But we know that in practice people are "allowed" to use firearms in less obviously dire circumstances.

What I suspect is the case, and what makes the most sense, is that in most jurisdictions there's no automatic self-defense allowed in any event. People involved in an altercation should both be charged with assault and when one or both claims self-defense, the burden of proof should be on them to demonstrate this. In practice, I imagine the police or DA make this determination early on by not making arrests or filing charges.

In any case, I long ago decided that, as an adult who is small and unable to utilize bulk defensively, when attacked I will assume intent of deadly force and will respond with deadly force...and then take my chances with a jury later. For most of us, physical fights among adults are very rare and it's actually rather easy for someone to be badly hurt inadvertently. Assuming that one is in great danger seems like a defensible assumption to me. Also, as a practical matter my willingness to view potential altercations as very dangerous and serious matters has had the side-effect of making avoidance of such situations more likely. It's been decades since I've been in such a situation, but in my twenties I had several men back down from me—presumably because it was apparent to them that, for me, this wasn't a game or schoolyard encounter.

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September 4, 2009 6:04 AM in reply to kmellis

A "reasonable" or proportional defense in this or a similar case would require that you accurately assess the threat you face in a matter of seconds and after being punched in the face!

Is the guy gonna stop at a couple of punches, or is he (maybe with the help of his buddies) going to render you helpless and kick you to death if he gets the chance? Not exactly easy to assess in the second or two after getting punched in the face. Often, a second or two is all the time you have to act before being rendered too stunned to put up any defense at all.

I mentioned that I have seen an unconscious guy repeatedly kicked in the head. Doesn't matter who started it at that point - that's attempted murder. But to me, up to that point, the right of self defense is absolute.

If I am attacked, the attacker has forfeited all rights to me, and I am entitled to do whatever it takes to fend off the attack. Period. There are no rules but survival and the attacker called that tune. There is no referee to protect me from his excess; I must protect myself. If I can, I will; to any degree necessary and by any means available.

If the law has a problem with that later, at least I'll be alive to talk about it.

To all those gentle souls who never actually had to hit anybody: Getting suddenly hit in the face is called "getting sucker punched." It is one of the most unfair tactics employed in a street fight for several reasons.

1) The fight has commenced before the defender knew there was a fight.

2) A hard punch to the face blurs the vision and stuns the brain - so you can't see the next one coming or defend against it properly - much less counterattack.

3) The suckerpunch specialist (who is likely to have used this tactic repeatedly in a long life as a bully) can then move in and finish off his opponent at no real risk to himself - as any defense will be weak, confused and ineffectual - then brag later about the fight he "won" and how he "kicked some ass."

That's why all my sympathy is for the guy who got punched in the face. Rice is a redneck punk with no guts, no brain and an attitude. A suckerpunch specialist. He got what he deserved.

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PatrickJKiger

September 4, 2009 7:25 AM in reply to richard f

I don't think biting Rice's finger off was the right response to his attack. If this situation arises again, the right response is block his punching arm, trap it and twist it toward your body, so that you rip his rotator cuff in two. Then reach out with other hand and grab the back of his skull, and slam his face into your upraised knee. After he crumples to the sidewalk, explain to him the merits of the public option.

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Larry Geater

September 4, 2009 9:29 AM in reply to PatrickJKiger

Good snark.

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Thucydides Junior

September 3, 2009 7:24 PM in reply to richard f

Correction - in the other thread you said you were in a fight. I have no basis to call you on that so, I will just say what I aid before:

Since clearly you are a socratic philosopher in a fight, I can tell you that most of us aren't, and if you bite down in a fight it is to hurt, and whether it takes a chunk out of someone is not something you debate in your head before the chomp.

It's not a choreographed fight - its a brawl. Do you really think someone who has been shocked by a punch in the face is gonna calculate bite pressure on a finger in his mouht? C'mon.

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AwkwardSilence

September 3, 2009 7:47 PM in reply to Thucydides Junior

Please. Obviously the man who just punched him in the face twice is a reasonable, well-mannered individual, so all he had to do was call "Time Out", remove the offending finger from his mouth- taking utmost care not to cause any further injury to the dainty Mr. Rice's digit- and then politely offer his face for more bashing.

And besides, anyone who has seen the Matrix knows that fights happen in 'bullet time'. So there's more than enough opportunity for calmly calculating, and applying, the precise amount of force necessary to extricate yourself from your opponent without causing the poor chap any undue harm.

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September 3, 2009 8:16 PM in reply to richard f

**Are you nuts??? If you stick anything in my mouth without my permission, it's GONE dude!

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Larry Geater

September 4, 2009 9:21 AM in reply to richard f

I hope you are not on the jury if I am ever forced to defend myself in court after a physical attack. If I am in a fight for my life biting is amongst the weapons I will deploy if I am able.

The line that one must not cross in self defense is continuing your fight after the other person is incapacitated or fleeing. Before that you do what it takes to survive.

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September 3, 2009 5:31 PM

Since Mr. Rice is so opposed to government health care, I'm assuming that he'll be paying for all the emergency room fees out of his own money, right? I mean, he wouldn't want to benefit from TEH EVIL SOCIALISM, would he?

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Shalamarfine

September 3, 2009 6:14 PM in reply to Matt Jones

Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if there's enough material in Cavuto's head to fill an m&m.

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September 3, 2009 7:07 PM in reply to Matt Jones

But if he has a private ensurer, he'd better pray they don't determine that that hangnail was a pre-existing condition.

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ohyeathatsright

September 3, 2009 7:37 PM in reply to JNagarya

But the hangnail was on my pinkey finger!
TOO BAD! DENIED!

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Winston Smith

September 3, 2009 5:39 PM

Another tiny brain washed clean by right-wing propaganda.

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GeorgeTheShrubber

September 3, 2009 5:50 PM

Freedom is just another word for losing a digit in a Townhall fight, or sumptin. Nation, meet the new Joe The Plumber.

Good timing by Mr. Knuckle-sammich-throwing GrandPa here. He was able to receive medical care from a socialist gubmint medical program before NoBama's Uber-socialist gubmint Death-To-Grandpas Panels got to him, killed him, emptied his bank account due to direct access, and withheld medical from GOP-leaning voters in his family. In yo face Dems!

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NobleCommentDecider

September 3, 2009 6:30 PM in reply to GeorgeTheShrubber

Georgetheshrubber do you hearby nominate 'The Pinky that Stopped Obamacare' for special display in The George W. Bush Presidential Library?

It would be displayed along with other freedom isn't free artifacts like Saddam's gun already planned for exhibit.

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GeorgeTheShrubber

September 3, 2009 9:47 PM in reply to NobleCommentDecider

So let it be written. So let it be done.

Joe The Thumber, my liebrarry wood liike yer pinkee.

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September 3, 2009 6:05 PM

Willam J. Rice: fighting for the freedom to punch people in the mouth when they say something you don't like.

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Shalamarfine

September 3, 2009 6:11 PM

And what's worse, it was his TRIGGER finger! Hard to perform his new role as a cult hero without a trigger finger.

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September 3, 2009 6:26 PM

I can get you a pinky. Believe me, there are ways, Dude. You don't want to know about it, believe me.

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September 3, 2009 6:40 PM

Of course the Rght will have a field day with this story. They knew we were angry, far-left, marxist, socialist, communist, terrorist-loving, baby-killing, government takeoverers but FINGER BITERS!

Could this be the bite heard round the world?

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September 3, 2009 6:51 PM

Ok, is it just me, or did Mr. Rice throw a punch first, in response to someone calling him an idiot?
Then threw a second punch, that resulted in his finger being in the man's mouth. That seems like the police should be talking to Mr. Rice too, since he assaulted the pinkie-biter first. ;-)

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Cato's Ghost

September 3, 2009 7:14 PM

What TPM readers don't realize is that the health care "debate" is so deep into the realm of farce there is no prospect that it can come back. The public has lost all hope (HA!) in the One's ability to pull a rabbit out of this hat. And guess what - this was the easy issue, the one that the public knows is a real problem! Just wait til we get to capntrade, and censoring radio, and show trials for patriots acting within the defined parameters of the law, and all the other things that are near and dear to your heart, and which the public absolutely positively HATES.

Enjoy the 47% fellas, it's all down hill from here.

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NobleCommentDecider

September 3, 2009 8:07 PM in reply to Cato's Ghost

Just wait til we get to....

The 33,000 guillotines, prison boxcars with shackles and the organ harvesting?

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ohyeathatsright

September 3, 2009 7:25 PM

"I punched him in a face, and then I punched him again and my finger ended up in his mouth." Biting sounds like self defense to me. Finger-biter needs to come forward SOON or else he's going to be hardly credible on the stand. This will go to criminal court.

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September 3, 2009 7:30 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright

If all the biter had done was just bite him, then he has a credible claim of self defense. But biting him hard enough to sever a finger is way beyond the pale and beyond self defense. And running away doesn't help him either.

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ohyeathatsright

September 3, 2009 7:39 PM in reply to richard f

Agreed, that running doesn't help.
I responded to your post above on the other point.

It's completely unreasonable to expect someone to reasonably calculate that in the heat of battle.

If Rice had broken the guys nose, which is absolutely possible whenever you are punched in the face, would your argument change?

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September 3, 2009 8:19 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright

**Why hasn't the old guy been arrested? He hit first. Ånd second. Getting your finger bitten off doesn't absolve you of assault charges, does it?

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September 3, 2009 10:13 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright

Not if the guy isn't found.

Why cost himself a bunch of legal expense for defending himself? Unless he cops a plea, they'll never get a conviction. What they will do is subject him to a bunch of unnecessary BS, including legal fees and media attention - which could put him and his family at risk from other neanderthals.

No way I would come forward unless they got my name.

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Jan Tessier

September 3, 2009 7:32 PM

I don't believe this guy's story one bit.

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ohyeathatsright

September 3, 2009 7:40 PM

Where's the youtube video? Come on, it's been hours already!

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September 3, 2009 7:48 PM

Can't help but wonder if this McCain supporter cut his own finger off!

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September 3, 2009 7:49 PM

Notice that its always FauxNews where these people seek empathy. Unless the subject is actually empathy. If he only had his gun he could have kept himself from slugging that man.

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September 3, 2009 8:21 PM

So he punches the guy in the face, twice, simply for disagreeing with him and in the process gets injured...And we're supposed to think he's the hero? Uh...No. I'm more prone to think he has a very low IQ. Resorting to violence just because someone disagrees with you?

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September 3, 2009 9:37 PM

It is priceless that the man protesting health-care reform was at the hospital getting treatment for injuries courtesy of Medicare- which is government-run health-care.
And by the way, I don't watch Fox News so I don't know if this is normal, but really? 7 1/2 minutes for this interview? Man, this was so boring, just endless repetition and dead air.

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Stephen Daugherty

September 3, 2009 10:13 PM

The guy who bit his finger off deserves to go to jail. End of story. He does not represent an asset or a hero to our cause.

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September 3, 2009 10:43 PM in reply to Stephen Daugherty

By all means, let's punish the victim for defending himself.

He was getting pummeled. Biting off the finger stopped that - and maybe saved the guy's life.

Keep your freakin finger out of my mouth and it's perfectly safe.

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September 3, 2009 10:45 PM

Re the finger bite: For those who have never engaged in free-form pugilistic behavior with a stranger it would probably seem sensible that one should take care to observe the courtesy of ensuring that no serious harm be done to one's opponent, particularly if that opponent happens to be an attacker. As a person who has been involved with such indecorious behavior, I can assure anyone reading this that such niceties are generally not paramount--or even present among the defendant's thoughts. In fact, there are usually too many things going on to keep track of, so the mind goes to an empty channel (i.e. "snowbank") and is barely cognizant of the cerebellum and the limbic system trying all sorts of interesting things in the service of keeping one's ass intact. That could and probably did involve sensing a foreign object the size of a bratwurst jammed against the left molar--a juxtaposition that surely was not a part of civil discourse. Sensing the need to remove said bratwurst, it is likely that the limbic system simply sent a message via the pyramids of Betz and the fifth cranial nerves that resulted in a motion commonly known as gritting one's teeth. Helped by a couple of squirts of adrenaline from the adrenals, the resulting force was probably enough to change the balance of power between the owner of the bratwurst and the defendant. Fight over, and for the aggressor, no more Chet Atkins style guitar. But that's just a guess.

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September 3, 2009 11:12 PM in reply to rmiller

PS - I was roflmao, RMiller.

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September 3, 2009 11:09 PM

But...but...but... Isn't it much better to allow oneself to be pounded into insensibility, and possibly hospitalized, permanently injured or killed than to risk serious injury to one of our neanderthal cousins? Then if we are killed or seriously injured, we - or our next of kin - will have the satisfaction of seeing said neanderthal cop a plea to a lesser charge and get some really severe probation.

That demonstrates the rightness of our cause, you see.

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MAX TARDCORE

September 3, 2009 11:13 PM

But what about the finger?

Forget about the fuckin' finger! I can get you a finger. I can get you a finger by 3 o'clock... There are ways. You don't want to know, Dude....

Please calm down, sir.

Please, dear? Please, dear?

This is a family restaurant.

I'll have you know my buddies died face down in the muck so we could enjoy this family interest.

Fuck it, I'm leaving.

Come on, man. Don't go. These are precious freedoms... Well, I'm staying. I'm finishing my coffee.

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Armageddon T. Thunderbird

September 3, 2009 11:31 PM

This is total bullshit. If somebody hits you in the face once. Then hits you again...what are you supposed to think....that he's going to stop after 2 punches. Are you supposed to let this guy pound you?

I'll tell you something - if he hits me twice - I'm figuring a 3rd and 4th punch are on the way. And if he then happens to stick any part of his body near my mouth....I friggn biting it the hell off. And there won't be any re-attaching cause you'll have to paw through my stool to find it.

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some dude named steevo

September 4, 2009 12:00 AM

You should never throw the first punch. You might punch the wrong person and get yourself killed. And it would be your own fault...

The only thing that could make this story more funny is if the biter had taken that finger and shoved it up that guy's rectum. THAT would have been a classic ER story.

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September 4, 2009 1:52 AM

Let's reframe this debate in terms of another controversial topic in our country: immigration.
It seems to me that one's face is a natural border around our person. If Mr. Rice trespasses across my border and into my mouth with his fist, I would say that his fist is illegal. His finger is bitten off. So i have just apprehended an illegally intrusive digit that shouldn't be on my side of my border.
What is it about the word "illegal" doesn't Mr. Rice understand?

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NotBornEveryMinute

September 4, 2009 2:18 AM

Shouldn't we make it the salute of liberals, like me, to give him and his ilk the finger?

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Jack Torrance

September 4, 2009 3:24 AM

Aaah, I get it. Personal responsibility is great up until the point where you lose the fight that you started and have to be bailed out by the government's health coverage. What a complete hypocrite.

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September 4, 2009 4:03 AM

"Medicated"? Oh God, another loser who gives a bad name to the rest of us on psychotropic drugs.

Mr. Rice, please call your psychiatrist and get your meds adjusted. Impulse control is a major problem for people with our condition and the appearance of the symptom is cause for concern.

Read: "Danger to self and others."

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September 4, 2009 9:20 AM

Adds new meaning to the phrase "giving them the finger."

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September 4, 2009 9:36 AM

I just have a feeling this guy is phony

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September 4, 2009 9:52 AM

I'm sad that it was only his finger.

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September 4, 2009 9:55 AM

How about if the biter shot him instead? Isn't that self-defense if someone attacks you, you can shoot him why can't you bite his finger off?

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