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Franken Challenges Thune: 'We're Not Entitled to Our Own Facts'
Ben Craw | December 15, 2009, 11:28AM
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Sen. Al Franken (D-MN) challenged Sen. John Thune (R-SD) in a startlingly tense exchange yesterday, slamming Thune's apparent looseness with the truth by saying, "We're not entitled to our own facts."
Yesterday afternoon Thune took to the Senate floor with a chart that tried to illustrate how the Senate health care reform bill supposedly proposes tax increases immediately while "many of the benefits don't start getting paid out for another 1,479 days."
Franken was having none of it. Franken took issue with Thune's chart, rising to the floor minutes later to challenge its assertions. What followed was an unusually tense exchange between Thune -- fourth in the Senate GOP leadership -- and the freshman Franken.
Here's video of the back and forth:
You can watch a longer, less edited version of the Franken-Thune showdown here.
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tonigo
December 15, 2009 11:39 AM
Oh yeah - Al Franken. I remember that guy. I was wondering whatever happened to him.
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henk
December 15, 2009 1:01 PM in reply to tonigo
You don't get out much, eh?
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Keeping It Real
December 15, 2009 2:26 PM in reply to tonigo
He won't let you forget again. I like his style. We need more of this. Grayson and Franken could really turn our legislative process into an effective organization again by telling it like it is.
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tpr
December 15, 2009 6:26 PM in reply to tonigo
I'm so glad I had an opportunity to vote for Franken. Protip: his office returns phone calls, too.
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pv2k
December 15, 2009 11:49 AM
Franken speaks out....
He's getting his voice and he will be a good one.
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Signalman
December 15, 2009 12:06 PM
I love how Franken's got stones and he isn't afraid to use them. We need more Democrats like him.
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CityGuy
December 15, 2009 1:37 PM in reply to Signalman
Amen.
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lapdogs
December 15, 2009 2:04 PM in reply to Signalman
Do they have a classroom anywhere in The Capital where Senator Al Franken can teach the other Democrats how to go after the republicans?
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Signalman
December 15, 2009 2:07 PM in reply to lapdogs
Wouldn't that be a great thing? :)
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Problem Is
December 15, 2009 2:23 PM in reply to lapdogs
That is CLASSIC lapdogs:
"Do they have a classroom anywhere in The Capital where Senator Al Franken can teach the other Democrats how to go after the republicans?"
Unfortunately, most Democrats could not fit through the classroom door...
Their wallets are too fat with Corporate campaign bribes.
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lousgirl84
December 16, 2009 10:47 AM in reply to Problem Is
LOL LOL LOL. If the dem pockets are overflowing, the thugs are already full.
What a joke of a remark. Typical troll
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Problem Is
December 18, 2009 3:23 AM in reply to lousgirl84
Is that you again McAulife?
"LOL LOL LOL. If the dem pockets are overflowing, the thugs are already full. What a joke of a remark. Typical troll.
No one said both parties are not corrupt.
I would LOL at you if the analytical ability of you dogmatic fundamentalist Kool-Aid drinkers was not so wanting. The KOS crowd of intollerance wanders over again. By the way your Apostle Molokos is trashing your political solar messiah. I would get on that like a bunch of Palinites if I were you.
Typical ignorant American.
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ShoelessJoeMcCarthy
December 15, 2009 3:47 PM in reply to lapdogs
Right on! :)
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Mateo123
December 15, 2009 3:48 PM in reply to lapdogs
Wouldn't it be great if Senator Franken would simply go after Republicans and LIEberman, Nelson and Landrieu on a daily basis?
There is too much lying.
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KC Chef
December 16, 2009 1:17 AM in reply to Signalman
I second that!
Our Dem Senators are just too darned nice sometimes. McCain needs his words shoved up his Arse every once in awhile
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WaitWut?
December 15, 2009 12:37 PM
When I first heard he was running for Senate I was...confused. Was this the comedian that I never really enjoyed? Hmmmmmm...
It seems he was just waiting to answer his true calling.
"We're not entitled to our own facts." Great quote.
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navamske
December 15, 2009 2:22 PM in reply to WaitWut?
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Dorn76
December 15, 2009 1:02 PM
Thune isn't interested in a discussion about facts, none of the GOP are, as none of their arguments stand up to much scrutiny.
Lovin' me some Franken.
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Cleo
December 15, 2009 1:04 PM
Stuart Smalley, I'm sending you a case of Oreos. You did good! Thanks for standing up to these Republican liars.
Most of them have never read the bill, they can't, it's over their heads or it is just too long for them to bother with it. I think most of them have their assistants skim the bill and give them their interpretation.
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JEP07
December 15, 2009 3:34 PM in reply to Cleo
I bet Thune's curled up in fetal position somewhere, sucking his thumb and repeating over and over "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me..."
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henk
December 15, 2009 1:10 PM
Oh my, Thune is the Senator from our neighboring state. Our local Wing-Nuts will be hissy fittin' about this.
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pl3bian
December 15, 2009 1:20 PM
What a firebrand. You go Senator Franken.
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ccswan
December 15, 2009 1:30 PM
I'm longtime Franken fan but must admit after watching the whole of this exchange, that Thune gets the last word and its not clear who was actually correct on the point of contention -- when the benefits of HCR actually begin.
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Hussein Stemper
December 15, 2009 1:34 PM in reply to ccswan
Right -- or whether the CBO actually said that "99%" of the benefits don't kick in until later. Anyone in TPM land know the answer?
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Overreach THIS!
December 15, 2009 2:07 PM in reply to Hussein Stemper
Yes!
The long version of this exchange (clicking on last word of post) has Thune getting the last word, which gives the impression that he is correct and depressingly, has made a bit of a fool out of Franken. That's this long edit, what's on the screen as selected by TPM.
So I really don't understand what we're being invited to watch here or why.
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superking
December 15, 2009 1:33 PM
Isn't Thune right, though? I recall a recent Josh Marshall post about how the delay in benefits could spell trouble for Democrats in the 2010 elections, because of this reason.
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ohyeathatsright
December 15, 2009 1:51 PM in reply to superking
It's a question on embellishing. None vs Some vs All.
Thune says none.
Franken says some.
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henk
December 15, 2009 2:26 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright
Franken said the majority, or something to that effect.
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henk
December 15, 2009 2:29 PM in reply to ohyeathatsright
I just watched it again. He said "The large Majority of benefits kick in on day one."
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elle a
December 15, 2009 1:59 PM in reply to superking
how can a delay spell trouble, at least they will get the benefits. all this instant gratification, these things take time to sort out, they dont just appear magically.
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superking
December 15, 2009 2:02 PM in reply to elle a
"how can a delay spell trouble" ...because its delayed until after the election. Voters see the costs and don't see the benefits - this is not a recipe for electoral success.
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lousgirl84
December 16, 2009 10:49 AM in reply to superking
It wouldn't be the first time Josh and TPM got things wrong!!!!!
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rbeats
December 15, 2009 1:40 PM
So Thune goes back up and lies again. What a fucking joke.
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JEP07
December 15, 2009 3:11 PM in reply to rbeats
THE UNTRUTH!
IT IS THEIR ONLY REMAINING TOOL FOR ELECTORAL SUCCESS!
Franken's running interference against "the untruth", which is so much more than the miscreant "journalists" who interview all the liars(R) every Sunday and never once take them to task for their egregious deceptions.
One thing is for certain, and anyone who doubts it is either naive or one of them, THEY KNOW THEY ARE LYING!
Their hypocrisy need no better proof than this fact. They KNOW thay are misleading their constituents, but again, it is the only way to save their party and make some sort of showing this next election, is to patently and shamelessly provoke their ignorant base with more layers of ignorance.
HYPOCRITES!
Keep after em', Al, you in the Senate and Grayson in the house seem to be the only courageous voices we hear these days, you are doing YOUR jobeveryone else seems to be playing pattycake with the likes of Lieberman.
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consumetheconsumer
December 15, 2009 1:51 PM
Imagine a Democratic Senate with more like Franken . . . that might be change we could believe in . . .
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JEP07
December 15, 2009 3:35 PM in reply to consumetheconsumer
No doubt, the C-Span ratings would jump precipitously.
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 1:53 PM
Wa'al, technically Franken was right. Some "benefits" would indeed kick in right away. But Thune is also right in that the most costly benefits - like expanding medicaid to the uninsured - were delayed for four years to bring down the total cost of the whole shebang over 10 years. That bein' the case, I'd call her putty nigh a draw.
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tamiasmin
December 15, 2009 2:08 PM in reply to rstephen
Well yes, it's a draw if some = all.
If Sen. Thune had said that some of the most costly benefits don't begin for several more years, he would be speaking honestly and no one could object. But that doesn't chart nicely, so he went with the much larger claim. And that's dishonest.
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 2:22 PM in reply to tamiasmin
Aint meanin no disrespect, bet if ye give a listen ye might hear Thune say, "Many of the benefits don't start gettin paid out..." I can't narely see the bold-faced lie in it, though I'll allow he weren't makin no brags bout the benefits that came in out of the gate.
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Tom Dibble
December 15, 2009 4:46 PM in reply to rstephen
If you read what is plainly written on the "chart" he puts up every chance he gets, you will see it says "days until benefits begin".
That, as Al pointed out, is an utter lie. Benefits begin on day one, even if they ALL haven't kicked in until 2014.
When Thune got up to defend his position, he again stated that "the spending benefits" (no "some" or "most" there) begin in 2015. He then qualified "spending benefits" as solely including the premium tax credits and the exchanges. Note that that particular novel definition of "spending benefits" appeared nowhere in his original remarks, but THAT is where he goes from bald-faced lying to telling a partial truth.
The point of Thune's presentation, though, was to get the deceptive and flat out incorrect "chart" out as a visual, because that's all his audience (the Republican base) are going to see or understand.
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 5:33 PM in reply to Tom Dibble
Wa'al, I'll reckin I kin allow the main idee in yer expositry whitout gettin all the partic'lars. A pikture kin go on a-talkin a spell and finly jest plum out-talk the talker. So that there pikture might a bin bare-faced lyin wile Thune was jes lyin around the edgis.
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Cheesemoose
December 15, 2009 1:57 PM
This thread illustrates that nothing was accomplished. Do the benefits kick in immediately or not? You don't get a clear idea from this exchange.
Jesus Christ - even when we get someone in there with balls we can't get an honest accounting.
Can someone please just state whether or not the majority of benefits kick in immediately?
Oh, I know: It's the usual Democratic answer: It's not that simple!
Do these guys do politics for a living, or is it a hobby they're dabbling in?
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 2:31 PM in reply to Cheesemoose
"Do these guys do politics for a living, or is it a hobby they're dabbling in?"
Some'll dabble in it. Some'll dobble in it. An some'll durn near dive in up to thur eyeballs.
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henk
December 15, 2009 2:32 PM in reply to Cheesemoose
Franken said that "The large majority of the benefits kick in from day one." That seems pretty clear to me.
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 3:02 PM in reply to henk
Not meanin no disrespect, but "large majority" don't tell the hull shebang. A man kin eat the "large majority" of radishes at a church picnic. But til he gets to the fried chicken, he may's well be starvin.
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rbe1
December 15, 2009 3:53 PM in reply to rstephen
How droll.
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Mr.E.
December 15, 2009 2:47 PM in reply to Cheesemoose
The problem with your question, and with Thune's comments and charts are the words "the benefits." This bill covers a lot of ground. Some things are implemented immediately, some are ratcheted in, some do not start until the necessary organizational structure is created. For example, (I believe) immediately prohibits denying coverage for pre-existing conditions. But insurance can't be purchased on an exchange until the infrastructure of such a change is created. And it costs money to create such, and increase in taxes pays for those things. You can't build a road or a school before you raise the money, so first you raise taxes or issue bonds, and then start construction.
I sent Sen. Franken and e-mail and called his office, asking him to post the list he was reading from. He was obviously armed with specific facts. His number in DC is (202) 224-5641. If a bunch call and offer support and ask for the list, we may see it quicker.
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 3:47 PM in reply to Mr.E.
Not meanin no disrespect, but the expansion of medicaid and such-like might could kick in t'morry, but she won't get there till after a spell of four years. An like as not the Re-publcans could step in on the meantime and say 'good riddcance' to the hull shebang. So't may be that a whole lot of poor folk wood kick the bucket afer anythin would git round to kickin in fer them.
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LeaningLeft
December 15, 2009 3:54 PM in reply to Mr.E.
Franken might be referring to this...
http://dpc.senate.gov/dpcdoc-sen_health_care_bill.cfm
It looks like a lot of "things" kick in next year. Maybe the most costly would kick in later. I didn't look at it that close. Franken should have also pointed out that all of the taxes don't kick in immediately either. According to the link, the High Cost Insurance Excise Tax doesn't kick in until 2013. So, some taxes kick in right away; others don’t. Some benefits kick in right away; others don’t. Not a big deal.
Besides, raising the money for something before you spend it sounds sort of fiscally responsible to me. Wouldn't Republicans be all for that? Oh wait. I forgot. They're hypocrites.
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LeaningLeft
December 15, 2009 3:56 PM in reply to LeaningLeft
Sorry. On the page that I linked, scroll to "Implementation Timeline" and click that link.
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JadeZ
December 15, 2009 1:58 PM
isnt the real point that the rest of the democrats sit by and allow this to go on?
day after day after month they simply refuse to be honest and passs any bill that actually works for the people.
why the hell dont they all get up and yell "you lie"?
and where the hell is obama?
he has shown himself to be totally corrupt just as the majority are in congress and thats the real reason why you get members that just lie over and over even after you just seconds before showed them to be lies.
i wonder if anyone here realizes how bad things are in this country?
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elle a
December 15, 2009 2:05 PM in reply to JadeZ
obama is totally corrupt. really.
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Signalman
December 15, 2009 2:11 PM in reply to elle a
OhmiGAWD. Like, gag me with a shovel, right?
/snark
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Waltz
December 15, 2009 2:52 PM in reply to JadeZ
Wait, Obama is to blame for members of congress lying? Cuz they never did that before? huh
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rbe1
December 15, 2009 3:57 PM in reply to Waltz
No, he is only to blame for his own dishonesty. He certainly implied that he was going for a strong public option and it looks to me as though his henchman Rahm is going for something shiny to dangle in front of the dumbass voters, so unless you're going to tell me that Rahm is in charge, then I would say yes, Obama is lying.
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Nicnack74
December 15, 2009 4:27 PM in reply to rbe1
He can advocate for a strong public option, but the fact remains that he is pragmatic and he wants to go with what passes. He wants it to pass. People seem to forget that he planned and stated that he would govern from the center. He was not nor ever a progressive. He was always a centrist.
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Dorn76
December 15, 2009 2:59 PM in reply to JadeZ
Still haven't found that shift key.
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JEP07
December 15, 2009 3:32 PM in reply to JadeZ
"i wonder if anyone here realizes how bad things are in this country?"
So, why don't you move to Iran? Or better yet, Iraq, then your urgency about your national condition might actually match the reality you seem so incapable of admitting.
We are still one of the best placers in the world to live, we still have a proponderance of blessings shed upon us at every level, this nation still IS identified by the statue of liberty, not the teabaggers, no matter how badly they want to mamke things out to be.
I've been hearing that same sorry "woe is me, America is failing" for 50 years, and I have never believed it.
We are now and will be for decades, if not centuries to come, a great nation, and no matter how "bad" it gets, it will never get as bad as some of these sore losers claim it is.
Like I said, if you think we have it bad here in America, move to Iraq for a few months.
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Cal Gal
December 15, 2009 2:12 PM
Thune, even with an assist from McCain, is such a tool.
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pmb50
December 15, 2009 2:18 PM
finaly someone calling them out on their bullshit
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rbe1
December 15, 2009 3:59 PM in reply to pmb50
How about someone to go after the white house and their particular brand of bullshit ?
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Goshen
December 15, 2009 4:39 PM in reply to rbe1
That's what we have you for.
Discuss.
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Powkat
December 15, 2009 2:33 PM
Al Franken is a self-made man, financially secure and able to say what he thinks. He'll make fun of anything and anybody, but when you listen to him talk about his family or you read his books, upi cam see he is a man with a conscience and a commitment to following it. Paul Wellstone was his friend and hero.
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Tom Burka
December 15, 2009 3:06 PM
Wow -- so Thune is clearly in favor of ALL the benefits kicking in on Day One! Maybe we can redraft the bill to reflect that and use his vote instead of Lieberman's.
I'm so proud of Thune for his commitment to providing affordable health care to all Americans.
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hollywood
December 15, 2009 3:33 PM in reply to Tom Burka
You know that was exactly what I was thinking. If Thune is so concerned that benefits do not kick in right away then LETS HAVE THE GOD DAMNED BENEFITS KICK IN RIGHT AWAY! I hope I am not the one who is stuck waiting till 2014 to get covered when I get sick in 2010 ...2011 .....2012 .....2013 ....2014 .....
America is the most useless bunch of greedy and dishonest motherfuckers on Earth!
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 4:19 PM in reply to hollywood
Most time I'd ruther shet up than play devil-advicut, but I suspicion Thune's idee was in showin how the Dems cooked the books, ruther than goin into bissnus with'm.
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mgmonklewis
December 15, 2009 5:06 PM in reply to rstephen
WTF is the deal with the Uncle Remus schtick?
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Tintin
December 15, 2009 6:37 PM in reply to rstephen
No. The deal is to kill reform any which they can. So they, like Thune, play all sides of the net. Sort of the food is terrible...and the portions are so small. He doesn't care about the benefits kicking in right away...or never...as long as the argument helps dissuade someone from supporting the bill. If he can get the progressives riled up about benefits delayed, then that's what he'll do. He certainly doesn't want the benefits now. He doesn't want any benefits ever. He wants tort reform, "competition" across state lines, and one other thing that escapes me right now.
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hollywood
December 15, 2009 10:44 PM in reply to Tintin
Right you are! Every Refucklickin would rather do nothing and watch people suffer go bankrupt, and die .... so they can get checks from big Insurance and Drug whores. If after the end of this debacle of reform any thinking person does not see Refucklickins for what they are and DESPISE them... then we live in kookooland.
The good result here might be though that it puts pressure on the almighty Dems to hurry up with the god damned benefits. Do they think we will all be excited by what might happen in 2014 and run out and vote for them in 2010? How tone deaf and stupid.
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Dave Adams
December 15, 2009 3:06 PM
YEAH!
Thank GOD there is a little OUTRAGE on our part.
Thanks Al.
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JEP07
December 15, 2009 3:21 PM
Al's best line
"...maybe I'm naive..."
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tiowally
December 15, 2009 3:31 PM
"Thune, even with an ASSist from McCain, is such a tool."
But what kind of tool? Oh, yeah, an inoperative rectal thermometer; it reads 68.9°F.
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tiowally
December 15, 2009 3:33 PM in reply to tiowally
And he "wants to point out again that the chart is very accurate."
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Noam Sane
December 15, 2009 3:35 PM
Anti-douchebaggery.
More like this, please.
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Rionn Fears Malechem
December 15, 2009 3:39 PM
Remember Franken's bit in 1990 on SNL,after he'd left the regular cast? He said that "The 1980s, were the Me decade, but the 1990s are the me decade, me, Al Franken." I think maybe the 2010s will be the Al Franken decade.
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rbeats
December 15, 2009 3:43 PM in reply to Rionn Fears Malechem
http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/comedy/watch/v17990884DXWTS8At
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Rionn Fears Malechem
December 15, 2009 3:45 PM in reply to Rionn Fears Malechem
I might be ten years off. I can't remember if the 1970s or the 1980s were the 'me' decade.
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tiowally
December 15, 2009 3:55 PM in reply to Rionn Fears Malechem
1970s = Me decade; '80s = Al Franken decade; '90s Joe Franken decade.
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Clavis
December 15, 2009 3:49 PM
Only reason I wish I lived in Minnesota.
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The Old Grouch
December 15, 2009 4:55 PM in reply to Clavis
What? That it's a refreshing 4 degrees out today isn't good enough for you?
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ruhappynow
December 15, 2009 3:51 PM
How refreshing it is to have a Democratic Senator who is bold enough to speak out against the bs the Republicants have been dishing out since 2008 elections. Try as they have to be bipartisan the Democrats have been met with lies and deception from the Republicants and it is passed time for niceties. Democrats need to move forward and do what they know is best for our country and we should be proud of our new Democratic Senator Franken and his out spoken attitude.
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Startdecember
December 15, 2009 3:54 PM
The GOP should be afraid of Sen. Al Franken. Remember Reagen and what happened when people started thinking of him as a politician and not an actor? Thank God for Sen. Franken speaking the truth and fighting back against these liars.
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SBG
December 15, 2009 4:49 PM in reply to Startdecember
Yeah, we had Wellstone and suffered through six years of Norm, but we replaced him with Al! Yippee! Now, we need to properly replace T-Paw and send Ms. Bachmann to the loony bin where she belongs.
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IMNOTBITTER
December 15, 2009 3:56 PM
It is unfortunate that Al didn't just say it out loud...Thune you are a F....n liar! And of course since you are an f...n liar you are in the correct political party! And Joe LIEbercrap and his wh£%e wife go screw yourselves!
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hologram5
December 15, 2009 4:13 PM
What a sorry ass meeting that the rest of the DEMS just sit there and let Franken do all the talking. I don't understand where these men's balls went. Are they on the mantle at home? Are we to just sit and watch these asshats lie to us again and again? Where is the rage? They lied during the lead up to Iraq, they lied to us in the lead up to Vietnamistan, they lied throughout the lead up to the economic crash, including the dotcom bubble back in the early 90's. What the hell is going on that we can't get any real men and women in there that can come to some sort of understanding that is amicable to all involved? Are they all stoned or just stupid?
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rynato
December 15, 2009 4:14 PM
I love Sen. Thune's conclusion.
"The chart is very accurate"
Yes, it has numbers! And it is big and colorful! Just like the 3D graphics Colin Powell used at the UN to justify the case for war against Iraq!
It must be true!
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suydam@yahoo.com
December 15, 2009 4:18 PM
Isn't it great to have a REAL liberal Minnesotan on the Floor of the Senmate again. You can rest now Hubert, the standard has a bearer.
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suydam@yahoo.com
December 15, 2009 4:18 PM
Isn't it great to have a REAL liberal Minnesotan on the Floor of the Senmate again. You can rest now Hubert, the standard has a bearer.
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raiatean
December 15, 2009 4:26 PM
I followed Al on radio and was amazed at his abilities. He is a solid Liberal and one I would march to the gates of hell with. For those of you who didn't get out much, and I am seeing boat loads of you, you should do some looking on line to see just how dedicated Al Franken is. I am not sure but there should be archived shows of his probably on the White Rose Society. I for one am very pleased that Al Franken is now a Senator. We surely could use another 49 just like him male or female, that doesn't matter only kick assers name takers need not apply. Go Al, I only wish that I could have voted for you....
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rstephen
December 15, 2009 4:40 PM in reply to raiatean
Havin likewise herd Al on the readyo, I'm burstin wit joy he'd ruther got hitched up in the Senate.
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WaitWut?
December 16, 2009 9:58 AM in reply to raiatean
I admit I really had no idea why this "comedian" was running for the Senate, and I didn't have much faith. But, I spent some time looking him up last nite and I'm in awe. I never would have imagined him to be who he is.
Yep. I have faith now. I don't consider myself a liberal. I'm on the fence, normally. But, I agree that the Democratic party needs a true leader. Someone with balls, integrity and remembers what we are "supposed" to stand for. It's truly surprising to see how Sen. Franken is taking the reins. Maybe he can coax some of the other Dems out of the closet now that they have someone to stand behind.
Funny how most conservative blogs can only come up with "He's short, fat and offensive." I wonder if they stick their tongues out at him when they pass him on the street.
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theWalrus
December 15, 2009 4:43 PM
The "Al Franken Decade" [tm] has just begun.
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Overreach THIS!
December 15, 2009 5:02 PM
THIS HAS BEEN A VERY SUCCESSFUL THREAD FROM TPM'S PERSPECTIVE! Everybody got all excited and stuff! But if you look at the longer version of the tape by clicking on the last word of the TPM post, Thune comes off as clearly winning. It's not "close;" he rebutted Franken completely and if Franken had his own riposte, it was not shown. (Why?)
Thune comes off as victor -- maybe that's because TPM edited in a self-destructive way (Thune gets several long minutes to deliver his last word), or maybe Franken effectively admitted defeat by offering no comeback, or maybe Thune was actually right. (Or maybe Al came back and cleaned his clock; not shown.) After watching the longer TPM version of the clip and all the excitement above, I still have no idea. They can show the identical outtakes on redstate.com and the readership will (rightly) be saying that Thune cleaned up on Franken.
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dswx
December 15, 2009 6:27 PM in reply to Overreach THIS!
Sorry, but that is a flat out lie and posting non-facts here really seals the deal. The *facts* in the full video are quite clear. The chart says indicates nothing that Franken read from the bill. Thune quickly skips over the "many" parts of the spending do not kick in until 1800 days. Anyone watching comes away with Thune saying nothing kicks in until 1800. That is a lie. Franken called him on it by his specific reference. Game, set, and match went to Franken. He schooled Thune.
Why do Repubs think that lying is acceptable behavior? And that capital letters in their posted comments here somehow mean they have a clue when they do not.
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hollywood
December 15, 2009 10:55 PM in reply to dswx
People think lying is acceptable behavior because we have all been schooled in the OJ Simpson defense mentality which is that everyone has the right to sit and tell lie after lie after lie, about any matter life or death, if it benefits them personally. It is 'lawyer rules' for courtrooms that have now taken over politics and made personal responsibility a joke for saps and loosers. Lying is a noble profession and requires a degree and a license to practice. Lying makes you a lot of money.
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Overreach THIS!
December 16, 2009 5:31 AM in reply to hollywood
Now here is the problem with this whole thread. The guy above makes a fool of himself by not watching the long version of the vid http://tpmtv.talkingpointsmemo.com/?id=4208037 which is precisely as I laid it out, and accuses me of being a Republican and asks why Republicans (like me) are such liars?
It should be pretty fucking easy to check if I'm a Republican, right? Just click at left on Overreach THIS! and look at my home page. It's the second fucking entry, "Party:" Easy for him, easy for you. It's right fucking there before your faces!!!
Easy also to watch the goddam clip before calling me a liar. So what do you do? Make any attempt attempt to understand the facts? Fuck no! You explain to him why people like me are all liars without having the slightest clue what you're talking about. Nice.
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Overreach THIS!
December 16, 2009 5:12 AM in reply to dswx
Did you fucking watch the long version of this?
You can verify my Republican party affiliation if that's what you say it is on my home page.
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rbeats
December 15, 2009 5:59 PM
Why did you edit this from 14 min to 4 min?
I would appreciate if the original was put up again. That is not fair to swap videos out after commenting has begun.
Doing those types of things undermines the credibility of a blog.
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Jackster
December 15, 2009 6:00 PM
Regardless of the facts just laid out by my good friend from Minnesota, the "chart is accurate"
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dswx
December 15, 2009 6:29 PM
For the record, Senator Franken's quote was originally stated by the late Senator Daniel Patrick Moynahan:
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts."
Words to live by for real Americans. Words to ignore by Republicans and Libertarians.
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klip
December 15, 2009 6:47 PM
Smackdown? It would have been great if the clip had stopped when Franken was done but for those that watched the entire 18 mins, the last several were of Thune rebutting Franken's "smackdown".
This bill has gotten so convoluted it is difficult to clearly see the benefits and have comfort that the costs are both accurate and fully factored-in. Moreover, this has made obfuscation and selective fact-quoting very easy for Thune and his buddies.
I am all for healthcare reform, especially going to a single-payer system. Our system, however, once again has seemingly forced us to compromise into a very sloppy and inefficient mishmash that's easy to pick apart and torpedo. It's no wonder that even some liberals are questioning whether this end product will be worth it.
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MzTicketyBoo
December 15, 2009 7:22 PM in reply to klip
Ditto, what Klip said. I can't tell up from down with this debate anymore. We're so engrossed with who's sleeping with who and other shyte that most are just tuning out.
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Tim
December 15, 2009 7:13 PM
Franken for President.
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Tim
December 15, 2009 7:14 PM in reply to Tim
Just, glad to be the first one that said that.
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USgreentech
December 15, 2009 8:19 PM
John Thune is a punk. Get rid of the guy.
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dougom
December 15, 2009 8:29 PM
Can he and Sen. Klobuchar be my Senators, too? I'd gladly trade them for Cornyn and Hutchison. Heck, I'd throw in Lamar Smith, too.
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Uberlib
December 16, 2009 4:53 PM
Go Al! Almost enough to make me want to move to Minnesota. Gotta be better than Kentucky!
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ragmag
December 18, 2009 2:48 PM
""i wonder if anyone here realizes how bad things are in this country?"
So, why don't you move to Iran? Or better yet, Iraq, then your urgency about your national condition might actually match the reality you seem so incapable of admitting.
We are still one of the best placers in the world to live, we still have a proponderance of blessings shed upon us at every level, this nation still IS identified by the statue of liberty, not the teabaggers, no matter how badly they want to mamke things out to be.
I've been hearing that same sorry "woe is me, America is failing" for 50 years, and I have never believed it.
We are now and will be for decades, if not centuries to come, a great nation, and no matter how "bad" it gets, it will never get as bad as some of these sore losers claim it is.
Like I said, if you think we have it bad here in America, move to Iraq for a few months. "
You do realize that maybe some people have it worse than you do due to the takeover of our country by the elite? And I don't consider myself a sore loser, I just am sad about what my country has become. I am sick of the ultra rich pis@ing on me. And it looks like nothing will "Change". Even if it was promised last year.
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Tosh
March 12, 2010 6:09 PM
his decade has just begun
kamagra m65
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