
The White House released President Obama's Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech. Here's the full text:
Your Majesties, Your Royal Highnesses, distinguished members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, citizens of America, and citizens of the world:
I receive this honor with deep gratitude and great humility. It is an award that speaks to our highest aspirations -- that for all the cruelty and hardship of our world, we are not mere prisoners of fate. Our actions matter, and can bend history in the direction of justice.
And yet I would be remiss if I did not acknowledge the considerable controversy that your generous decision has generated. (Laughter.) In part, this is because I am at the beginning, and not the end, of my labors on the world stage. Compared to some of the giants of history who've received this prize -- Schweitzer and King; Marshall and Mandela -- my accomplishments are slight. And then there are the men and women around the world who have been jailed and beaten in the pursuit of justice; those who toil in humanitarian organizations to relieve suffering; the unrecognized millions whose quiet acts of courage and compassion inspire even the most hardened cynics. I cannot argue with those who find these men and women -- some known, some obscure to all but those they help -- to be far more deserving of this honor than I.
But perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars. One of these wars is winding down. The other is a conflict that America did not seek; one in which we are joined by 42 other countries -- including Norway -- in an effort to defend ourselves and all nations from further attacks.
Still, we are at war, and I'm responsible for the deployment of thousands of young Americans to battle in a distant land. Some will kill, and some will be killed. And so I come here with an acute sense of the costs of armed conflict -- filled with difficult questions about the relationship between war and peace, and our effort to replace one with the other.
Now these questions are not new. War, in one form or another, appeared with the first man. At the dawn of history, its morality was not questioned; it was simply a fact, like drought or disease -- the manner in which tribes and then civilizations sought power and settled their differences.
And over time, as codes of law sought to control violence within groups, so did philosophers and clerics and statesmen seek to regulate the destructive power of war. The concept of a "just war" emerged, suggesting that war is justified only when certain conditions were met: if it is waged as a last resort or in self-defense; if the force used is proportional; and if, whenever possible, civilians are spared from violence.
Of course, we know that for most of history, this concept of "just war" was rarely observed. The capacity of human beings to think up new ways to kill one another proved inexhaustible, as did our capacity to exempt from mercy those who look different or pray to a different God. Wars between armies gave way to wars between nations -- total wars in which the distinction between combatant and civilian became blurred. In the span of 30 years, such carnage would twice engulf this continent. And while it's hard to conceive of a cause more just than the defeat of the Third Reich and the Axis powers, World War II was a conflict in which the total number of civilians who died exceeded the number of soldiers who perished.
In the wake of such destruction, and with the advent of the nuclear age, it became clear to victor and vanquished alike that the world needed institutions to prevent another world war. And so, a quarter century after the United States Senate rejected the League of Nations -- an idea for which Woodrow Wilson received this prize -- America led the world in constructing an architecture to keep the peace: a Marshall Plan and a United Nations, mechanisms to govern the waging of war, treaties to protect human rights, prevent genocide, restrict the most dangerous weapons.
In many ways, these efforts succeeded. Yes, terrible wars have been fought, and atrocities committed. But there has been no Third World War. The Cold War ended with jubilant crowds dismantling a wall. Commerce has stitched much of the world together. Billions have been lifted from poverty. The ideals of liberty and self-determination, equality and the rule of law have haltingly advanced. We are the heirs of the fortitude and foresight of generations past, and it is a legacy for which my own country is rightfully proud.
And yet, a decade into a new century, this old architecture is buckling under the weight of new threats. The world may no longer shudder at the prospect of war between two nuclear superpowers, but proliferation may increase the risk of catastrophe. Terrorism has long been a tactic, but modern technology allows a few small men with outsized rage to murder innocents on a horrific scale.
Moreover, wars between nations have increasingly given way to wars within nations. The resurgence of ethnic or sectarian conflicts; the growth of secessionist movements, insurgencies, and failed states -- all these things have increasingly trapped civilians in unending chaos. In today's wars, many more civilians are killed than soldiers; the seeds of future conflict are sown, economies are wrecked, civil societies torn asunder, refugees amassed, children scarred.
I do not bring with me today a definitive solution to the problems of war. What I do know is that meeting these challenges will require the same vision, hard work, and persistence of those men and women who acted so boldly decades ago. And it will require us to think in new ways about the notions of just war and the imperatives of a just peace.
We must begin by acknowledging the hard truth: We will not eradicate violent conflict in our lifetimes. There will be times when nations -- acting individually or in concert -- will find the use of force not only necessary but morally justified.
I make this statement mindful of what Martin Luther King Jr. said in this same ceremony years ago: "Violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones." As someone who stands here as a direct consequence of Dr. King's life work, I am living testimony to the moral force of non-violence. I know there's nothing weak -- nothing passive -- nothing naïve -- in the creed and lives of Gandhi and King.
But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: Evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force may sometimes be necessary is not a call to cynicism -- it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason.
I raise this point, I begin with this point because in many countries there is a deep ambivalence about military action today, no matter what the cause. And at times, this is joined by a reflexive suspicion of America, the world's sole military superpower.
But the world must remember that it was not simply international institutions -- not just treaties and declarations -- that brought stability to a post-World War II world. Whatever mistakes we have made, the plain fact is this: The United States of America has helped underwrite global security for more than six decades with the blood of our citizens and the strength of our arms. The service and sacrifice of our men and women in uniform has promoted peace and prosperity from Germany to Korea, and enabled democracy to take hold in places like the Balkans. We have borne this burden not because we seek to impose our will. We have done so out of enlightened self-interest -- because we seek a better future for our children and grandchildren, and we believe that their lives will be better if others' children and grandchildren can live in freedom and prosperity.
So yes, the instruments of war do have a role to play in preserving the peace. And yet this truth must coexist with another -- that no matter how justified, war promises human tragedy. The soldier's courage and sacrifice is full of glory, expressing devotion to country, to cause, to comrades in arms. But war itself is never glorious, and we must never trumpet it as such.
So part of our challenge is reconciling these two seemingly inreconcilable truths -- that war is sometimes necessary, and war at some level is an expression of human folly. Concretely, we must direct our effort to the task that President Kennedy called for long ago. "Let us focus," he said, "on a more practical, more attainable peace, based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions." A gradual evolution of human institutions.
What might this evolution look like? What might these practical steps be?
To begin with, I believe that all nations -- strong and weak alike -- must adhere to standards that govern the use of force. I -- like any head of state -- reserve the right to act unilaterally if necessary to defend my nation. Nevertheless, I am convinced that adhering to standards, international standards, strengthens those who do, and isolates and weakens those who don't.
The world rallied around America after the 9/11 attacks, and continues to support our efforts in Afghanistan, because of the horror of those senseless attacks and the recognized principle of self-defense. Likewise, the world recognized the need to confront Saddam Hussein when he invaded Kuwait -- a consensus that sent a clear message to all about the cost of aggression.
Furthermore, America -- in fact, no nation -- can insist that others follow the rules of the road if we refuse to follow them ourselves. For when we don't, our actions appear arbitrary and undercut the legitimacy of future interventions, no matter how justified.
And this becomes particularly important when the purpose of military action extends beyond self-defense or the defense of one nation against an aggressor. More and more, we all confront difficult questions about how to prevent the slaughter of civilians by their own government, or to stop a civil war whose violence and suffering can engulf an entire region.
I believe that force can be justified on humanitarian grounds, as it was in the Balkans, or in other places that have been scarred by war. Inaction tears at our conscience and can lead to more costly intervention later. That's why all responsible nations must embrace the role that militaries with a clear mandate can play to keep the peace.
America's commitment to global security will never waver. But in a world in which threats are more diffuse, and missions more complex, America cannot act alone. America alone cannot secure the peace. This is true in Afghanistan. This is true in failed states like Somalia, where terrorism and piracy is joined by famine and human suffering. And sadly, it will continue to be true in unstable regions for years to come.
The leaders and soldiers of NATO countries, and other friends and allies, demonstrate this truth through the capacity and courage they've shown in Afghanistan. But in many countries, there is a disconnect between the efforts of those who serve and the ambivalence of the broader public. I understand why war is not popular, but I also know this: The belief that peace is desirable is rarely enough to achieve it. Peace requires responsibility. Peace entails sacrifice. That's why NATO continues to be indispensable. That's why we must strengthen U.N. and regional peacekeeping, and not leave the task to a few countries. That's why we honor those who return home from peacekeeping and training abroad to Oslo and Rome; to Ottawa and Sydney; to Dhaka and Kigali -- we honor them not as makers of war, but of wagers -- but as wagers of peace.
Let me make one final point about the use of force. Even as we make difficult decisions about going to war, we must also think clearly about how we fight it. The Nobel Committee recognized this truth in awarding its first prize for peace to Henry Dunant -- the founder of the Red Cross, and a driving force behind the Geneva Conventions.
Where force is necessary, we have a moral and strategic interest in binding ourselves to certain rules of conduct. And even as we confront a vicious adversary that abides by no rules, I believe the United States of America must remain a standard bearer in the conduct of war. That is what makes us different from those whom we fight. That is a source of our strength. That is why I prohibited torture. That is why I ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed. And that is why I have reaffirmed America's commitment to abide by the Geneva Conventions. We lose ourselves when we compromise the very ideals that we fight to defend. (Applause.) And we honor -- we honor those ideals by upholding them not when it's easy, but when it is hard.
I have spoken at some length to the question that must weigh on our minds and our hearts as we choose to wage war. But let me now turn to our effort to avoid such tragic choices, and speak of three ways that we can build a just and lasting peace.
First, in dealing with those nations that break rules and laws, I believe that we must develop alternatives to violence that are tough enough to actually change behavior -- for if we want a lasting peace, then the words of the international community must mean something. Those regimes that break the rules must be held accountable. Sanctions must exact a real price. Intransigence must be met with increased pressure -- and such pressure exists only when the world stands together as one.
One urgent example is the effort to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, and to seek a world without them. In the middle of the last century, nations agreed to be bound by a treaty whose bargain is clear: All will have access to peaceful nuclear power; those without nuclear weapons will forsake them; and those with nuclear weapons will work towards disarmament. I am committed to upholding this treaty. It is a centerpiece of my foreign policy. And I'm working with President Medvedev to reduce America and Russia's nuclear stockpiles.
But it is also incumbent upon all of us to insist that nations like Iran and North Korea do not game the system. Those who claim to respect international law cannot avert their eyes when those laws are flouted. Those who care for their own security cannot ignore the danger of an arms race in the Middle East or East Asia. Those who seek peace cannot stand idly by as nations arm themselves for nuclear war.
The same principle applies to those who violate international laws by brutalizing their own people. When there is genocide in Darfur, systematic rape in Congo, repression in Burma -- there must be consequences. Yes, there will be engagement; yes, there will be diplomacy -- but there must be consequences when those things fail. And the closer we stand together, the less likely we will be faced with the choice between armed intervention and complicity in oppression.
This brings me to a second point -- the nature of the peace that we seek. For peace is not merely the absence of visible conflict. Only a just peace based on the inherent rights and dignity of every individual can truly be lasting.
It was this insight that drove drafters of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights after the Second World War. In the wake of devastation, they recognized that if human rights are not protected, peace is a hollow promise.
And yet too often, these words are ignored. For some countries, the failure to uphold human rights is excused by the false suggestion that these are somehow Western principles, foreign to local cultures or stages of a nation's development. And within America, there has long been a tension between those who describe themselves as realists or idealists -- a tension that suggests a stark choice between the narrow pursuit of interests or an endless campaign to impose our values around the world.
I reject these choices. I believe that peace is unstable where citizens are denied the right to speak freely or worship as they please; choose their own leaders or assemble without fear. Pent-up grievances fester, and the suppression of tribal and religious identity can lead to violence. We also know that the opposite is true. Only when Europe became free did it finally find peace. America has never fought a war against a democracy, and our closest friends are governments that protect the rights of their citizens. No matter how callously defined, neither America's interests -- nor the world's -- are served by the denial of human aspirations.
So even as we respect the unique culture and traditions of different countries, America will always be a voice for those aspirations that are universal. We will bear witness to the quiet dignity of reformers like Aung Sang Suu Kyi; to the bravery of Zimbabweans who cast their ballots in the face of beatings; to the hundreds of thousands who have marched silently through the streets of Iran. It is telling that the leaders of these governments fear the aspirations of their own people more than the power of any other nation. And it is the responsibility of all free people and free nations to make clear that these movements -- these movements of hope and history -- they have us on their side.
Let me also say this: The promotion of human rights cannot be about exhortation alone. At times, it must be coupled with painstaking diplomacy. I know that engagement with repressive regimes lacks the satisfying purity of indignation. But I also know that sanctions without outreach -- condemnation without discussion -- can carry forward only a crippling status quo. No repressive regime can move down a new path unless it has the choice of an open door.
In light of the Cultural Revolution's horrors, Nixon's meeting with Mao appeared inexcusable -- and yet it surely helped set China on a path where millions of its citizens have been lifted from poverty and connected to open societies. Pope John Paul's engagement with Poland created space not just for the Catholic Church, but for labor leaders like Lech Walesa. Ronald Reagan's efforts on arms control and embrace of perestroika not only improved relations with the Soviet Union, but empowered dissidents throughout Eastern Europe. There's no simple formula here. But we must try as best we can to balance isolation and engagement, pressure and incentives, so that human rights and dignity are advanced over time.
Third, a just peace includes not only civil and political rights -- it must encompass economic security and opportunity. For true peace is not just freedom from fear, but freedom from want.
It is undoubtedly true that development rarely takes root without security; it is also true that security does not exist where human beings do not have access to enough food, or clean water, or the medicine and shelter they need to survive. It does not exist where children can't aspire to a decent education or a job that supports a family. The absence of hope can rot a society from within.
And that's why helping farmers feed their own people -- or nations educate their children and care for the sick -- is not mere charity. It's also why the world must come together to confront climate change. There is little scientific dispute that if we do nothing, we will face more drought, more famine, more mass displacement -- all of which will fuel more conflict for decades. For this reason, it is not merely scientists and environmental activists who call for swift and forceful action -- it's military leaders in my own country and others who understand our common security hangs in the balance.
Agreements among nations. Strong institutions. Support for human rights. Investments in development. All these are vital ingredients in bringing about the evolution that President Kennedy spoke about. And yet, I do not believe that we will have the will, the determination, the staying power, to complete this work without something more -- and that's the continued expansion of our moral imagination; an insistence that there's something irreducible that we all share.
As the world grows smaller, you might think it would be easier for human beings to recognize how similar we are; to understand that we're all basically seeking the same things; that we all hope for the chance to live out our lives with some measure of happiness and fulfillment for ourselves and our families.
And yet somehow, given the dizzying pace of globalization, the cultural leveling of modernity, it perhaps comes as no surprise that people fear the loss of what they cherish in their particular identities -- their race, their tribe, and perhaps most powerfully their religion. In some places, this fear has led to conflict. At times, it even feels like we're moving backwards. We see it in the Middle East, as the conflict between Arabs and Jews seems to harden. We see it in nations that are torn asunder by tribal lines.
And most dangerously, we see it in the way that religion is used to justify the murder of innocents by those who have distorted and defiled the great religion of Islam, and who attacked my country from Afghanistan. These extremists are not the first to kill in the name of God; the cruelties of the Crusades are amply recorded. But they remind us that no Holy War can ever be a just war. For if you truly believe that you are carrying out divine will, then there is no need for restraint -- no need to spare the pregnant mother, or the medic, or the Red Cross worker, or even a person of one's own faith. Such a warped view of religion is not just incompatible with the concept of peace, but I believe it's incompatible with the very purpose of faith -- for the one rule that lies at the heart of every major religion is that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us.
Adhering to this law of love has always been the core struggle of human nature. For we are fallible. We make mistakes, and fall victim to the temptations of pride, and power, and sometimes evil. Even those of us with the best of intentions will at times fail to right the wrongs before us.
But we do not have to think that human nature is perfect for us to still believe that the human condition can be perfected. We do not have to live in an idealized world to still reach for those ideals that will make it a better place. The non-violence practiced by men like Gandhi and King may not have been practical or possible in every circumstance, but the love that they preached -- their fundamental faith in human progress -- that must always be the North Star that guides us on our journey.
For if we lose that faith -- if we dismiss it as silly or naïve; if we divorce it from the decisions that we make on issues of war and peace -- then we lose what's best about humanity. We lose our sense of possibility. We lose our moral compass.
Like generations have before us, we must reject that future. As Dr. King said at this occasion so many years ago, "I refuse to accept despair as the final response to the ambiguities of history. I refuse to accept the idea that the 'isness' of man's present condition makes him morally incapable of reaching up for the eternal 'oughtness' that forever confronts him."
Let us reach for the world that ought to be -- that spark of the divine that still stirs within each of our souls. (Applause.)
Somewhere today, in the here and now, in the world as it is, a soldier sees he's outgunned, but stands firm to keep the peace. Somewhere today, in this world, a young protestor awaits the brutality of her government, but has the courage to march on. Somewhere today, a mother facing punishing poverty still takes the time to teach her child, scrapes together what few coins she has to send that child to school -- because she believes that a cruel world still has a place for that child's dreams.
Let us live by their example. We can acknowledge that oppression will always be with us, and still strive for justice. We can admit the intractability of depravation, and still strive for dignity. Clear-eyed, we can understand that there will be war, and still strive for peace. We can do that -- for that is the story of human progress; that's the hope of all the world; and at this moment of challenge, that must be our work here on Earth.
Thank you very much. (Applause.)
And for those of you who made it this far, here's the video.
Kali Star
December 10, 2009 8:34 AM
He was in a tough spot here. I wouldn't have so spent so much of the speech defending war. I certainly would not have brought Norway's participation into it. I think he missed the one chance to make this prize really meaningful, and also to maintain some dignity for himself--he could have refused it, citing the war. That would have been an act of greatness.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
XXXOOOXXX
December 10, 2009 3:02 PM in reply to Kali Star
I campaigned for Barack; I voted for Barack. He is a very good motivational speaker. But please don't confuse that with being in charge of this war, which he is not. Politically he could not refuse the prize and once again appear weak to his detractors. A tough spot? I think he's pretty much exactly where he wants to be.
Oil pipeline, Natural Gas pipeline, Heroin pipeline: Good reasons for the U.S. empire to hold Af-stan.
Note on the graph (link below) that Opium production fell from 3200 metric tons to just 185 metric tons at the peak of Taliban influence in 2001. Allah does not want his Muslim children taking drugs!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/images/opium-image192.jpg
The U.S. empire really couldn't have that: It invaded in 2001 and the following year Opium production is back to a high of 3400 metric tons in 2002. Where is all this Heroin (made from the Opium) going? One might ask the CIA... Certainly the price of Heroin is down due to the massive quantities now available in the U.S. And the profits are funding CIA black ops we, the "citizens" of the U.S. empire, know nothing about. Here is a link to some articles about the CIA's funding of black ops:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB2/nsaebb2.htm
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
NoVA Dem
December 10, 2009 8:47 AM
Did you really read this speech? It was an act of greatness.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Why oh why
December 10, 2009 9:25 AM in reply to NoVA Dem
Genius, even.
"Obama accepts Nobel Peace Prize with robust defense of war"
Comic genius!
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
barth
December 11, 2009 11:11 AM in reply to NoVA Dem
I agree with you. I think it was one of the best explanations of how the quest for peace is not incompatible with the requirement of security which is the most basic obligation of a national government. Indeed, the three sitting presidents who have received this award have that in common as did Secretary (and General Marshall). Each conducted wars but led the world in the world in seeking peace.
I am almost always proud of this President (something I last thought when President Johnson urged passage of the Civil and Voting Rights Acts in the mid 1960s), but this speech went beyond what I have heard from him before. I would put this on the same level as President Roosevelt's speech, http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/fdrthefourfreedoms.htm, which it almost mimics in some ways.
That his audience was unhappy just speaks volumes about them.
I was driving while I heard the speech and, thus, could not stand and applaud. This is my substitute for that.
My only objection to the President's trip to Oslo is that he should have skipped the evening banquet and gone to see Regina Spektor and Jenny Young Owens, who were in concert nearby at the same time.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
T Groan
December 10, 2009 8:49 AM
An undeserved award followed up by actions (escalation of war) that further mocked the Nobel Prize. Come on obama worshippers and assorted democrat chickenhawks go ahead and blast me!
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
dswx
December 10, 2009 9:25 AM in reply to T Groan
You obviously did not read the speech, either. So yes, you are certainly ignorant.
BTW, sport: "Chickenhawks"?! Try these chickenhawk *facts*:
Spencer Abraham, Elliott Abrams, Roger Ailes, Lamar Alexander
John Ashcroft, Bob Barr, George Allen, Gary Lee Bauer, Glenn Lee Beck, William Bennett, Wolf Isaac Blitzer, John Andrew Boehner, John Bolton, Pat Boone, "Jim" Bunning, George Walker Bush, "Jeb" Bush, Carl Cameron, "Andy" Card, Saxby Chambliss, Dick Cheney, Ann Coulter, Larry "Wide Stance" Craig, Tom Delay, Steve Forbes, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Phil Gramm, Lee Greenwood, Judd Gregg, Sean Hannity, Brit Hume,
Alan Lee Keyes, William Kristol, Jon Kyl, Wayne LaPierre, Rush Hudson Limbaugh III, Trent Lott, Sr., Frank I. Luntz, Michael Medved, Grover Glenn Norquist, "Ted" Nugent, William "Bill" O'Reilly, Patrick Jake "PJ" O'Rourke, Ted Olson, Richard Norman Perle, Dan Quayle, Ralph Reed, Jr., Robert James "Kid Rock" Ritchie, "Pat" Robertson, Mitt Romney, Karl Christian Rove, Antonin Gregory Scalia, Joe Scarborough, Sylvester Gardenzio "Sly" Stallone, Ken Starr, Michael Steele, Ben Stein, Clarence Thomas, Kelsey Grammar, Jon Vincent Voight, Chris Wallace, George Will, and Paul Wolfowitz. Republicans own the "Chickenhawk" banner!
Of course we know you will be a coward and never admit that you are wrong.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hewhohasnoname
December 10, 2009 8:50 AM
Obama presented a clear-eyed speech that did not attempt to gloss over the hard realities of war and peace. That alone would be noteworthy. But his overarching focus on the complexities of our world, the failures of the human condition, the commonality of humanity, and the potential for achievement will continue to provoke thought for years to come.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Silence
December 10, 2009 8:52 AM
It was a good speech.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
elle a
December 10, 2009 4:41 PM in reply to Silence
i agree.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
lousgirl84
December 10, 2009 9:16 AM
I have a great admiration and respect for this President. A great speech from a great man. He gets an A just for the effort he makes every day. This guy works harder than any President I can remember in the last 30 years. At least he's trying - which is more than I can say for most of the Presidents before him.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
AnswerFrog
December 10, 2009 9:29 AM in reply to lousgirl84
Co-sign. He's presented with a mess of epic proportions and is making great strides in trying to right it. Impatient instant-gratification Americans want everything fixed "now" and with no cost to them. But then again, that immaturity is how Americans got into all these messes.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
December 10, 2009 10:15 AM in reply to AnswerFrog
Wow. That comment's one of the most insightful things I've read in months.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Hussein Stemper
December 10, 2009 10:26 AM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
Agree.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
dudeguy
December 10, 2009 10:32 AM in reply to Hussein Stemper
Hear, hear!
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
acamus
December 10, 2009 1:31 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
Agree, too
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
quinn esq
December 10, 2009 4:04 PM in reply to The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
Wha?
Want. Yer. Drugs.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
jenesq
December 11, 2009 9:31 AM in reply to AnswerFrog
So true. Well said!
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Silence
December 10, 2009 10:30 AM in reply to lousgirl84
Unfortunately, good speeches are just that...good speeches.
The problem with Obama is that he doesn't understand how wealth and prosperity was achieved in this country. He knows how to spend wealth. He knows how to confiscate wealth. He knows how to diminish wealth. He knows how to threaten wealth.
He just doesn't know how to create wealth.
In fairness, I must admit that most people have no idea how to create wealth or jobs. In fact, even most business owners could not accurately describe it. That's because it's 90% instinct.
Yes. Obama is a a good speaker. However, he is not the right man in this period of our nations' history. He lacks the instinct and experience while possessing an ego that will not allow him to listen to those who do.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Cool Blue Reason
December 10, 2009 10:44 AM in reply to Silence
Shouldn't you take your John Galt-like entrepreneurial spirit and determination and do something with it that is -- oh, I don't know -- better than trolling Internet comments?
And you can save any nonsense elaborating on how your slightly diminishing marginal dollar in the face of historically low progressive income taxation has left you economically indifferent to such work. If that is the case, you clearly lack the "instinct" to achieve the very ideals you claim to value so dearly.
In other words, fuck off.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Silence
December 10, 2009 10:57 AM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
Who is John Galt?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Cool Blue Reason
December 10, 2009 11:10 AM in reply to Silence
The paragon of a twisted mind.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
billyfd
December 10, 2009 1:11 PM in reply to Silence
Silence -- are you kidding us??
Wow. We all stagger before such a well-read, intellectual mind. :-)
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Scott
December 10, 2009 2:35 PM in reply to billyfd
Maybe I'm being naive, but I thought the "Who is John Galt?" was just a faux-question based on that same question appearing repeatedly thoughout Atlas Shrugged.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
jenesq
December 11, 2009 9:48 AM in reply to Scott
Whatever the reason, I must say that I am really, really tired of the pseudo-intellectual crap coming from this new generation of Ayn Rand "fans." Not only is it a creepy personal philosophy overall, it's just such a joke that an essentially anti-intellectual movement is draping itself in a high school lit class work.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
MASON
December 10, 2009 10:48 AM in reply to Silence
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you are one of those privileged few that knows how to create wealth. Am I right?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 10:50 AM in reply to Silence
Hahahaha. Instinct! Did you read the speech? Did you actually read it or did you just copy and paste the talking points. Did you read the speech? Clearly, you are old enough to read Icculus.
Let the Eagle soar, my friend... Like it's never soared before...
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Silence
December 10, 2009 10:59 AM in reply to ondioline
Did you read my posts? I said the speech was good. Unfortunately, it will not be enough to save his presidency.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 12:27 PM in reply to Silence
Just because your posts said you read the speech, doesn't mean you read it. You also spouted some claptrap about instincts driving job creation. I don't even know why I'm responding to you. You're clearly insane.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Dorn76
December 10, 2009 11:07 AM in reply to Silence
Is the secret trolling the blogosphere and spouting off about the "instinct" to create wealth?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Silence
December 10, 2009 11:17 AM in reply to Dorn76
Just waiting for the smoke to clear to get a good look at the playing field...or what's left of it.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Dorn76
December 10, 2009 12:42 PM in reply to Silence
You're mixing metaphors and making no sense.
Interesting, I'll give it a shot...
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
wial
December 10, 2009 9:28 AM
MLK was right though. there is no such thing as victory in war. Every act of violence produces negative consequences in the near and long term that far outweigh any short term gains. Guns shoot their users and makers. Countries that rule by violence like the US live in a present and future h*ll of their own making. We can do better though. There are actions that can absolve past sins. Soon the resources that fuel the age-old power of the oligarchs will dry up, and with communication technology there's a chance things could change. Not yet though. Not under Obama's watch. Too many years working in that conservative law firm I guess. Maybe he will be remembered as a prophet of something better to follow.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hewhohasnoname
December 10, 2009 9:40 AM in reply to wial
"Every act of violence produces negative consequences in the near and long term that far outweigh any short term gains."
I don't know that that absolutely holds true. I think two prominent counterpoints would be the American Civil War and WWII.
I think we should be careful not to resort to idealized notions of war and peace. I think Obama's primary effort was to emphasize that point.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Cool Blue Reason
December 10, 2009 10:35 AM in reply to hewhohasnoname
I happen to agree with you, broadly. But I find myself wondering about the American Civil War, and what might have been in some alternate reality. What if the South had simply seceded into the CSA, an economic and cultural backwater suffering in global isolation before perhaps eventually coming around (or destroying itself)?
Would the temporary continuation of slavery really have outweighed the moral cost and immense human toll that was exacted on both sides by the conduct of the war? Whose interests were truly served by fighting secession to the bitter end? And would a series of peaceful transitions (perhaps with eventual reunification) have left us with the same degree of political dysfunction that has plagued our "one nation" from Reconstruction to this day?
Obviously I do not know the answers, but I think our collective imagination tends to be quite limited (or non-existent) when it comes to certain historical events.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Dorn76
December 10, 2009 11:11 AM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
That would make a good book...in the style of "The Plot Against America".
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hewhohasnoname
December 10, 2009 11:16 AM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
I think you make good points. I was actually thinking the same thing about the Civil War, as well WWII. Ultimately, depending on one's perspective, he or she could argue that the short-term gains of those wars did not outweigh their near and long-term costs.
In offering those examples, I was assuming the position that the preservation of the Union and defeat of Nazism were ultimately more beneficial in the long-term; I think one could make a compelling argument for that position. But, certainly, some one could make an argument to the contrary.
My larger point, however, is that I think we should be careful to avoid falling into the rote recitation of the fallacious generalization that "peace is good and war is bad" (or the converse).
These matters of war and peace are much more complex and not actually amenable to dichotomous thought. I think your post helps emphasize that point.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Cool Blue Reason
December 10, 2009 11:30 AM in reply to hewhohasnoname
It just struck me the degree to which the conventional narratives regarding certain historical events tend to become serious constraints on our ability to imagine current and future events.
I mean, is it even possible to have a conversation about war and peace without someone trotting out, "What about good wars, like WWII?" What if it wasn't really a "good war"?
At the end of the day, my attitudes on these issues are pretty conventional. I agree with you (and Obama) on the larger philosophical point. But I find myself wondering to what extent my thinking has in fact been shaped by certain narratives which stand, for the most part, unchallenged.
I know enough to know that such narratives do not always withstand closer examination. The comforting story we tell ourselves about the necessity of dropping atom bombs on cities in order to avoid an invasion of Japan, for instance, quickly starts to look like B.S. -- even without the benefit of hindsight.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hewhohasnoname
December 10, 2009 12:17 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
I think you're right. Our post hoc attempts to rationalize our courses of action as "right" precludes any serious consideration of alternate outcomes, which is unfortunate, because it doesn't allow us to fully examine the costs of the courses of action we've taken. [This phenomenon definitely isn't limited to issues of war and peace.]
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Michael D
December 10, 2009 2:41 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
I agree both that war can have good consequences - like liberating concentration camps - but that, in the case of our Civil War, for example, it would of course been better if we achieved the aims withOUT war.
Full disclosure: I am a conservative Republican who didn't and will never vote for obama....but it was a very good speech
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
jenesq
December 11, 2009 9:54 AM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
What do you suppose would have happened to the slaves during the long decay of the Confederacy? And do you REALLY think that people who would enslave other humans would go quietly? This is the very essence of what Obama was talking about--we can't escape the baser side of human nature.
I mean, it's a nice idea that peaceful change can resolve any situation, but that idea is based on a completely unrealistic view of human nature. There are a lot of stupid, mean people out there, and we can't "peace and love" them out of existence. Indeed, even in MLK's "nonviolent" civil rights movement, a whole lot of people were brutally victimized, and had it not ultimately been for various demonstrations of power and might from outside the movement itself, the civil rights movement might have been crushed by hateful people intent on doing harm.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
barth
December 11, 2009 11:16 AM in reply to jenesq
You know: sad to say, in retrospect letting the CSA secede might have been the better idea.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
The Commenter Formerly Known as NCSteve
December 10, 2009 10:18 AM in reply to wial
Obama didn't work in a conservative law firm, git. He worked at a civil rights firm.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
WCG
December 10, 2009 10:44 AM in reply to wial
Of course, as we all know, there IS such a thing as victory in war. And it doesn't have to be the razed-Earth kind of victory, like Rome over Carthage, either. We were victorious in World War II, and we crafted a lasting peace from it.
No, we didn't wave a magic wand and end all violence everywhere, for ever and ever. But if you think anyone has a magic wand, you're kidding yourself AND us. In the real world, problems are complex and difficult. If this were all so easy, we'd have accomplished it by now.
Barack Obama gave a great speech, as usual. I especially admire how he treats his listeners as intelligent adults. Too often, that's not the case, but it's still refreshing.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
thecrow
December 10, 2009 9:36 AM
"the imperfections of man and the limits of reason"
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Dorn76
December 10, 2009 11:13 AM in reply to thecrow
Trust no one, Mr. Mulder.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
warbaby
December 10, 2009 9:37 AM
Sounds like a foreign policy to me.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
thecrow
December 10, 2009 9:46 AM
"modern technology allows a few small men with outsized rage to murder innocents on a horrific scale"
So it would seem:
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/04/11/the-rest-is-silence/
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
de TOQUEville
December 10, 2009 10:46 AM in reply to thecrow
OK, you can stop spamming us now. Yeesh.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Why oh why
December 10, 2009 9:48 AM
Has Bush ever been this deluded and hypocritical? Unbelievable. Too many absurd passages to quote them all ("America cannot insist that others follow the rules of the road if we refuse to follow them ourselves"), but this whole speech will live in infamy every time someone wins the Peace Prize in the future.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Why oh why
December 10, 2009 10:00 AM in reply to Why oh why
Times mentioned:
Iraq - 0
Saddam Hussein - 1 (about Kuwait invasion)
Guantanamo - 1 (he will close it one day)
Bagram - 0
No robust defense for the war of choice in 2003 and the "enlightened " torture (and murders) of detainees? Communist!
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
MASON
December 10, 2009 10:56 AM in reply to Why oh why
Yes, because when giving a major speech it makes so much sense to point out all the examples that contradict your message.
What did you expect this speech to be, some sort of confessional? A plea for forgiveness?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
thecrow
December 10, 2009 9:50 AM
http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/when-silence-is-betrayal/
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Nicnack74
December 10, 2009 9:50 AM
Great speech. Too bad everyone will read it from their lens of political ideology. I thought it was a pretty fair assessment of the position he was put in, and the acknowledgments he had to make. Good form.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
gdb
December 10, 2009 9:51 AM
"But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism - it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason."
The logic doesn't hold. There are 100-200 al Qaeda in Afghanistan. .... more in Pakistan, Iraq, iran, Yeman... more counties can be named. Do we invade them all?? Presumably not. Hitler had real armies. al Qaeda does not. al Qaeda has moral/religious beliefs that use terrorism as a primary tactic. Fighting al Qaeda and terrorists with armies is light fighting anarchists with armies. It's stupid. Fighting two non-winnable wars (by his own admission) is a choice Obama did NOT have to make.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hewhohasnoname
December 10, 2009 10:51 AM in reply to gdb
Rachel Maddow asked Susan Rice about this issue a few nights ago... Rachel asked her the same question: Essentially, if Al Qaeda exists in all these other countries, then how soon before we're told we need to go after Al Qaeda in those countries?
Rice responded that it's ultimately a matter of support. Right now, there are significant portions of the Taliban that are providing material and financial support to Al Qaeda, or looking the other way as Al Qaeda gains footholds in Afghanistan. The same can't be said about Al Qaeda operations in other nations. In most nations, Al Qaeda is not provided the support and/or it is marginalized by the government and people of those nations. [Pakistan has recently stepped up its efforts on this front.]
So, while Al Qaeda may exist in other countries, comparing its presence in Afghanistan to its presence in other nations is a false equivalency.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 10:55 AM in reply to gdb
Did you conduct an Al Qaeda census or something? And while we're on the subject, how many members of the Taliban who are committed to supporting Al Qaeda and overthrowing the Karzai government are there in Afghanistan? I'd just like to make sure we have an accurate headcount. I'm going to bake them all ACORN cookies.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 11:03 AM in reply to gdb
Very good response. Somehow we need to change our view that every disagreement has to be settled by armed might. There is no rational basis for the presence of our military in Afghanistan. The military is trained to kill, and they do that well. Afghanistan doesn't need more killers right now. It needs a lot of other things, but killers isn't one of them.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 12:29 PM in reply to hoppycalif2
What's the "lot of other things" that Afghanistan needs? And who should be responsible for providing them?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 2:41 PM in reply to ondioline
Afghanistan needs an aqricultural economy not limited to growing opium poppies. It needs a "farm to market" road system, or railroad system, so the products of that economy can reach consumers. It needs a school system, serving the needs of all of their citizens, men, women and children. It needs a corruption free national government, and equally corruption free local governments. It needs a system for providing electricity, for providing clean drinkable water, and a non-health threatening sewer system. Those are the first needs that come to mind, and none of them are military projects.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 3:45 PM in reply to hoppycalif2
I tend to agree with you, conceptually and in broad outlines, of course. But you didn't answer, IMO, the more important question: Who should be providing all of those things?
In the abstract, I would argue that the government of Afghanistan is responsible for providing those things. But we don't live in the abstract and the government of Afghanistan is incapable of providing those things, in no small measure, because the security situation in Afghanistan isn't conducive to the infrastructure-intensive requirements of developing those things. So the only practical way those things will be achievable is if provisions are made to stabilize the security situation. And I think you would agree that the Afghan military is in no condition to create secure conditions on its own. So if Afghanistan is going to have all of those good and noble things, the Afghan government and the Afghan military will need a great deal of help from the international community. And that help will almost certainly have to come from the U.N., NATO, and... you guessed it, The U.S. of A. It will have to come in the form of military aid, assistance, and training. It will have to come in the form of economic aid, assistance, and training. And it will have to come at the cost of the pacification or eradication of Al Qaeda and those members of the Taliban who are unwilling to lay down their arms and join the political process. That cost will undoubtedly include the lives of civilians and military personnel. Unless, of course, you don't want all those good and noble things for the Afghan people.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this: You're right. The situation in Afghanistan is thorny, complex, and difficult. It will require resources and solutions that go far beyond the scope of conventional military engagement. It will never be possible for anyone to kill their way toward modernity for Afghanistan (and modernity, in a nutshell, is what you described). But in the absence of military intervention, none of what you described will be possible in Afghanistan while the Taliban and Al Qaeda are content to deny the Afghan people all those things you would wish for them through a campaign of terror, violence, and repression.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 4:03 PM in reply to ondioline
The Taliban and Al Qaeda are two totally different groups. The Taliban is an extreme Moslem group, intent, as far as I can tell, on establishing their idea of what a Moslem government should be in Afghanistan. Since we should have no interest in what kind of government Afghanistan ends up with, only with that government not sponsoring attacks on other countries, we should probably make peace with the Taliban and help them to create the government they, and a large part of Afghanistan wants. Karzai is irrelevant to the solutions to Afghanistan's problems, except that he is an obstacle to achieving those solutions. The sooner he goes back to where ever he was before Bush and company dug him up to be the leader in Afghanistan, the better for everyone.
Now, to answer your question, Afghanistan should solve their own problems, with financial and technical support, as requested, from other countries, whether those countries include us or not. I don't see a role for the US military in any of that. All that they can do is train Karzai's police to crack down on those who don't support Karzai (sorry if I am misspelling his name). That ability isn't beneficial to Afghanistan. Possibly China is going to be the best source of help for Afghanistan.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 4:05 PM in reply to hoppycalif2
Sorry to reply to my own comment: Perhaps the best thing Obama can do is appeal to China to step in and, with our financial support, help Afghanistan to achieve stability.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 4:43 PM in reply to hoppycalif2
A couple of quick things: Yes, Al Qaeda and The Taliban are distinct entitites. I'm aware of that. That's why I identified them as such. (I didn't think The Taliban was a rock band fronted by a mysterious, charismatic, bearded lead singer named Al...). But to suggest that we will be able to deal with them completely apart from one another is to ignore the reality of what has actually taken place in Afghanistan in the last 10+ years. There are probably members of The Taliban who are in it for money or power rather than purely ideological reasons, and as such, can be co-opted. But if you think Mullah Omar and his inner circle are going to be angling for cabinet positions, you live in a fanciful world indeed. The Taliban's senior leadership and Al Qaeda have not been functioning as distinctive entities for some time now. That's a practical, real world reality.
"Since we should have no interest in what kind of government Afghanistan ends up with, only with that government not sponsoring attacks on other countries, we should probably make peace with the Taliban and help them to create the government they, and a large part of Afghanistan wants."
That's fine as far as it goes, except it is in complete conflict with what you spelled out earlier. The only aspect of the Afghanistan you described that The Taliban would've been in concert with was the poppy-free economy part... So which is it gonna be? Infrastructure? Education for all? A stable, vibrant economy? Or Afghanistan as governed by The Taliban? You may not be able to have either; you certainly can't have both.
"Karzai is irrelevant to the solutions to Afghanistan's problems, except that he is an obstacle to achieving those solutions. The sooner he goes back to where ever he was before Bush and company dug him up to be the leader in Afghanistan, the better for everyone."
Except before Bush & Co. "dug up" Karzai, there was the invasion, and before that there were the 9/11/01 attacks, and before that, The Taliban was in charge of the country, offering sanctuary to Al Qaeda, and acting in complete conflict with all of the exciting, non-military initiatives you were so stoked about. I don't love the guy either, but for the time being, Karzai is the devil we know... And Nature abhors a vacuum.
"Now, to answer your question, Afghanistan should solve their own problems"
Fanciful!
"[W]ith financial and technical support, as requested, from other countries, whether those countries include us or not. I don't see a role for the US military in any of that."
In the absence of a functional Afghan security force, someone's military is going to have to create the stability necessary to generate any real growth as a result of the financial and technical support.
"All that they can do is train Karzai's police to crack down on those who don't support Karzai (sorry if I am misspelling his name). That ability isn't beneficial to Afghanistan."
That's what you think the U.S. military is doing in a training capacity in Afghanistan right now?
"Possibly China is going to be the best source of help for Afghanistan"
Ummmm... WTF is China doing for Afghanistan right now? And WTF do you think China would have to get in exchange for wading into the giant turd sandwich that years and years and years of comically inept U.S. foreign policy has created in Afghanistan? I hate to break this to you, but this has the apocryphal "Pottery Barn Rule" written all over it. Your suggestions to the contrary are hopelessly naive. In the absence of a multi-national military force lead by the U.S., there is no international intervention in Afghanistan other than that of Iran, Pakistan, and India. There certainly isn't the shangri la of infrastructure and education and agriculture you described. And I highly doubt China wants to step in and create that while we're boxing up our gear, and bringing our men and women back stateside.
Dream on...
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 5:00 PM in reply to ondioline
The military has no means for "creating stability", short of shooting or bombing everyone. That's why they carry guns and not tech manuals.
I agree than one of us is being naive.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
elle a
December 10, 2009 4:51 PM in reply to hoppycalif2
but what makes you think america should be helping rebuild afghanistan? what the hell for?
american went into afghanistan to search and destroy al qaeda, and to ensure that alqaeda has no opportunity to launch attacks again from aghanistan. simple
that is the limit of their mission.
saying that obama didnt have to escalate the war is just naive.
if al qaeda is able to go into afghanistan freely and get support from the taliban there, and are able to launch attacks, how is this acceptable.
obama has the responsibility, since 9/11 to make sure that the people who planned the attacks from afghanistan are not able to do so again.
the war in afganistan was not a preemeptive war, unlike iraq.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 5:56 PM in reply to elle a
I think Obama should order an invasion of Germany. After all, that is the country where the actual 9/11 attack was planned, not Afghanistan. Does Germany still have any oil fields?
While we are there in Europe, I think we should also invade Italy, since the Mafia is from there, where they trained Mafioso to infiltrate our country and wreak havoc. Italy has oil fields too, don't they?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
gdb
December 10, 2009 10:01 AM
"But as a head of state sworn to protect and defend my nation, I cannot be guided by their examples alone. I face the world as it is, and cannot stand idle in the face of threats to the American people. For make no mistake: evil does exist in the world. A non-violent movement could not have halted Hitler's armies. Negotiations cannot convince al Qaeda's leaders to lay down their arms. To say that force is sometimes necessary is not a call to cynicism - it is a recognition of history; the imperfections of man and the limits of reason."
The logic doesn't hold. There are 100-200 al Qaeda in Afghanistan. .... more in Pakistan, Iraq, iran, Yeman... more counties can be named. Do we invade them all?? Presumably not. Hitler had real armies. al Qaeda does not. al Qaeda has moral/religious beliefs that use terrorism as a primary tactic. Fighting al Qaeda and terrorists with armies is light fighting anarchists with armies. It's stupid. Fighting two non-winnable wars (by his own admission) is a choice Obama did NOT have to make.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Cool Blue Reason
December 10, 2009 10:52 AM in reply to gdb
You ignore the fact that on the day Obama took office, the U.S. was already occupying Afghanistan, and that the situation there was weighed down by some 7 years of doing little that wasn't counterproductive to our stated purpose there.
The current "war" to which you refer is an effort to rectify the situation there. Contrary to your suggestion, its purpose at this stage is not simply (or even mostly) to exterminate Al Qaeda members. If it were, I would agree with your assessment.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 11:05 AM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
Could you share with us the other reasons for our continued presence in Afghanistan?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Cool Blue Reason
December 10, 2009 11:17 AM in reply to hoppycalif2
At the moment, it continues by order of the Commander in Chief. I seem to recall a speech not long ago in which he elaborated on all of the reasons for the decision. Assassination of Al Qaeda leadership did not rank high in the factors contributing to our continued (and escalating) occupation.
Whether in broad terms that decision is correct or incorrect, the point regarding "killing Al Qaeda" versus "other reasons" for the war in Afghanistan is the narrow one I was making here.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Geoff Johnson
December 10, 2009 4:47 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason
To Cool Blue Reason, why on earth did you put "war" in quotes? Do you somehow think what the U.S. is doing in Afghanistan is not part of a war? And you claim that what is happening now "is an effort to rectify the situation there," meaning we are fighting a war to undo the consequences of seven years of...war?
Given the ridiculousness of what you seem to be saying, I'm not surprised that "because they commander-in-chief said so" is apparently justification enough for continued war in Afghanistan as far as you are concerned. Others of us who voted for Obama, including myself, are not so willing to cede crucial matters of policy to his judgment (democracy and all that), and when he makes a horrible choice as he is doing in Afghanistan we will call him on it.
The extent to which Obama die-hards are unwilling to criticize him and end up supporting policies similar to those pursued by Obama's predecessor is the single most depressing thing in American politics today. TPM is rife with that kind of crap unfortunately.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
justperceptions
December 10, 2009 10:34 AM
The reality is that violence exists in all corners of the globe. We cannot stop bullets with love, but we can stop the soldiers who fire the guns. I support Obama's pragmatic policies even if the ideals by which he aspires would judge his actions poorly. We are willing to sacrifice lives, but the wealthiest in the world aren't willing to sacrifice their "quality of life" for the good of humanity. I understand that many wealthy individuals are philanthropic and that problems inherited by the world are not solvable with money alone. It's a product of war that we don't trust or help people who's plight is worse than our own.
I feel that Obama has made some just and aspirational comments, but the cause of peace is apparently untenable in our lifetime. While it may turn out to be the case, submission to this fact is counterproductive for peacemakers. The US president says that war is inevitable, and so we, as a struggling people, etc., should be prepared. It's disheartening.
(An aside: His views on militarism were a reason that I could not support him in the primaries.)
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Hoosierville
December 10, 2009 10:52 AM
The best line in the speech applies to a an awful lot of people around here...."the satisfying purity of indignation."
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 12:33 PM in reply to Hoosierville
NO question about it...
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
tchampmass
December 10, 2009 11:49 AM
"[W]ars between nations have increasingly given way to wars within nations. The resurgence of ethnic or sectarian conflicts; the growth of secessionist movements, insurgencies, and failed states; have increasingly trapped civilians in unending chaos."
Absent the actual use of military-grade firepower, that sounds more than a little like the U.S. in 2009. Well, maybe not a failed state -- not yet -- but certainly a dysfunctional one. Obama is, at least, trying to lead us in turning a corner to a new, middle-of-the-road consensus. Yet our nation cannot even agree on such basics as the idea that the GOP-led actions and policies of the past years contributed mightily to our disastrous recession; we cannot achieve a shared recognition that our current health care system is self-evidently broken; and, perhaps most ominous of all, we cannot come to a working accord on the idea that peer-reviewed scientific research (which has fueled so much of our nation's economic growth over the last 60 years) is a more accurate source of information about the physical universe than religous texts and dogma.
Common views, common purpose and common courtesy seem to elude us.
As this speech suggests (and as his relentlessly moderate policies confirm), Obama is trying to revive the idea of working together and respecting one another's views. That's a truly noble goal; even when I disagree with his specifics (I often outflank him on the left), I wish him well.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Ripper McCord
December 10, 2009 11:55 AM
Peace with al Qaeda is attainable by not fighting them? Right. Okay, those who want us to leave Afghanistan now; it's your turn to lead the way. I suggest you hop a flight to Karachi by way of Cairo and then start asking around for a peacemaking audience with bin Laden. You will certainly be met with the peace of eternal rest.
The return of the Taliban to power in Afghanistan would lay the groundwork for revitalizing al Qaeda and emboldening terrorists around the world. Yeah, Peace is better than war--unless it buys you only a short delay and the prospect of Armageddon.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
wye
December 10, 2009 12:17 PM
Taking down parts of this speech:
They aren’t technically ‘wars.’ It is disingenuous – at this point – to say we aren’t seeking war in A’stan. ‘Joined by 42 other countries’ is a farce. Average contribution is what? Double digit troops? Low triple digits? That is not ‘joined.’ They are reluctantly playing along to preserve their standing with us. Defend ourselves/others from further attacks? Our chosen course makes further attacks more likely, makes us less safe. They’ve always wanted us to invade and fight them, because it proves their point and furthers their cause. Every day we escalate militarily in a Muslim country, they win.
This isn’t a war. A nation can’t ‘go to war’ against a criminal syndicate, a gang. Better tools are the CIA, the FBI and international intelligence sharing. Competent focus by, and application of, these resources would have prevented 9/11 to begin with. Paid informants, infiltrators, CIA Predators if need be.
Evil! What a pathetic Bushism. Our enemies aren’t motivated, they don’t have grievances, stated demands. They’re simply evil. The utterance of this statement is the best evidence of the warped prism through which we view the conflict.
Declaring that we are the world’s sole military superpower is simply further invitation to balancing behavior by other nations – as if they don’t have enough reason already. The only way to lengthen one's tenure as a sole superpower is to studiously avoid acting like one.
Preemptive self defense. The Bush Doctrine. Attacking a nation because of what you imagine they might one day do to you. Might. It’s necessary, a war of necessity, Obama says. Cheney’s 1% Doctrine. This is what escalation in A’stan represents. That, and domestic political strategy. Avoid being flogged as ‘weak’ by Republicans. Even though the electorate rejected them in 06 and 08. How soon Democrats forget. If the ‘war’ in A’stan was really a Necessity, we’d necessarily have to invade and occupy a dozen other hinterlands and failed states around the world. In some teeming third world city at this moment, Muslim men sit in a haze of pipesmoke, talking of destroying America. Simple consistency demands that we invade. And Iran? Under the 1% Doctrine we should've invaded yesterday.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 2:53 PM in reply to wye
I think the word "evil" needs to follow the "n" word into obscurity, never to be uttered by educated people.
Obama is open to noting that much of what was done between 2001 and 2009 showed very poor judgment by our president at the time. But, he seems unable to recognize that virtually everything done then was done with poor judgment, so he seeks to continue some of it, possibly as part of his outreach to the Repubs. That should stop.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Nick
December 10, 2009 12:18 PM
It is sad that Obama's answer to world peace is to create and expand global institutions. It may seem noble on the surface, but for most of the third world it will just lead to more violence and war as Multinationals are allowed to move in and destroy ancient traditions in the name of capitalism. Americans, meanwhile, will continue to lose jobs with human dignity for retail jobs.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 12:31 PM in reply to Nick
The world isn't at peace, so I don't see how this speech could be consider "Obama's answer to world peace". If he gets to give that speech 7 years from now, it will be due to a lot of hard work by educated, dedicated individuals, not those who philosophize about "multinationals" from the sidelines...
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Nick
December 10, 2009 3:36 PM in reply to ondioline
Sorry, I should have phrased it "Obama's solution for world peace"...
And, when it comes to global problems and war, almost all of them are due to corruption and colonialism caused by Western Governments and Corporations that have spent centuries mishandling different cultures with entirely different lifestyles and goals outside of material fetishism. Obama's handling of Afghanistan portrays this same attitude. It complete ignores America's role in causing disruption throughout the Third World.
Oh and as far as 'hard work' there are Billions of people unable to work because their water is too polluted, their politics too corrupted, and their kin too demoralized. The democratic and republican party do not recognize them as anything but savages(or future markets), and to put 'work' into institutions that are supported by the very multinationals that cause the harm is working backwards.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 3:56 PM in reply to Nick
I highly doubt you could name an American President more in tune with America's role in creating or propagating misery and despair in other nations. I doubt we've had many. So spare me on that front.
And I don't have any interest in propping up either the Democratic or Republican parties when it comes to alleviating misery in the Third World... But there, I think you are confused and a bit naive. You seem to be conflating parties with people. And there are millions of people throughout the Western World dedicating their time, money, and effort to eliminating and overcoming some of the exact challenges you described. Meanwhile, you're on the internet, blaming Obama for everything and ranting like some college freshman in a dorm room, Che poster on the wall, Bob Marley's Legend in the 3-disc changer, joint in hand, blithely moaning about the corporations and the establishment's complicity in the injustices you heard about in your 100 level international studies class... Wake up, grow up, and join those of us who are actually working to get something done.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Nick
December 10, 2009 5:11 PM in reply to ondioline
Your reply is filled with funny ironies.
First, I will admit that Obama does pay better lip service than other presidents to global issues. However, just because he is better than Nixon, Regan, Clinton, Bush, etc does not make him exempt from being complicit in supporting tyranny. Obama had a incredible ability to change the United States stance on a ton of issues, and supporting outdated Just War theory is not one of them. His mistake will only lead to more colonial terror by the west in the future.
Second, you originally posted that Obama may be able to provide for world peace in 8 years with 'hard work'. Now, you state that political parties are not capable of helping with third world problems. I would agree with this sentiment. Furthermore, the political parties, as supported by Corporate institutions looking to exploit territory for profit, must be worked against. It does not appear that the 'hard work' by these millions of people are guided properly. This is not a matter of humanitarian effort, but of fundamental resistance to the political parties and corporations as they are currently formed.
Third, you have no idea what I do in my other time. Providing new ideas is a form of action. I don't know if it occured to you that you are posting on the internet as well. It is unfortutunate that you are largely unable to engage in debates outside of ad hominen attacks. Even if I was a pot smoking college student who listened to Bob Marley that would not change the validity of my argument.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
ondioline
December 10, 2009 5:17 PM in reply to Nick
Your argument doesn't really have any validity right now, so from that standpoint, it might improve things.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Nick
December 10, 2009 5:20 PM in reply to ondioline
I think it is a matter of you being ignorant of colonialism more than my argument being invalid.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
johnnyba
December 11, 2009 11:42 AM in reply to Nick
"I think it is a matter of you being ignorant of colonialism"
Funny, I would have said the same about yours but added several strains of imperialism, tribalism, religious extremism, and just about everything else. Have you considered the role of Soviet Russian imperialism in creating the issues we are dealing with in Afghanistan? It was a backwater but a stable and fascinating place until their tanks rolled in. The world is a complicated and multi-faceted place shaped by varying extremes. Obama seems to know that but you don't.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Dorn76
December 10, 2009 1:13 PM
Our chosen course makes us less safe....
What course would improve our safety, returning Afghanistan to its Pre 9/11 state? Surely not a good plan. So what's yours?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Dorn76
December 10, 2009 1:13 PM in reply to Dorn76
for Wye above
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
wye
December 10, 2009 4:25 PM in reply to Dorn76
Dorn, my alternative is either explicitly or implicitly stated in my post above. I can highlight it for you, but the following is just a restatement:
1. Stop being dishonest and logically inconsistent. Stop with the "war" and "42 allies" propaganda, and the "evil." "The Global War on Terror" was a propaganda creation of the Bush Administration in furtherance of its power-grabbing. Perpetual war = perpetual Presidential War Powers, a hightened level of Presidential authority compared to peacetime. Stop calling A'Stan a "War of Necessity" when, if that's true, we should be invading and occupying a dozen other hinterlands and failed states that do or might have an al Qaeda presence. Two words: Intellectual Honesty.
2. Al Qaeda - being a criminal syndicate - is (by definition!) a law enforcement problem, though admittedly a hightened one (by using the term "law enforcement problem" I do not seek to minimize the threat, only to properly categorize and distinguish it). Treat it as such, in A'stan and elsewhere. FBI, CIA (including Predators), international intelligence cooperation, and intelligence-centric operations including informants, communications monitoring, etc., are the best means of finding and eliminating al Qaeda cells. Military intelligence capabilities and the occasional armed asset (cruise missile strike, etc) can be incorporated if necessary. Occupation of Muslim lands by regular military forces is an ineffective strategy that plays to al Qaeda's strengths and propaganda.
I would withdraw all combat forces from A'stan as rapidly as possible (accounting for ordinary safety concerns, obviously). I would leave only trainers for the federal army - a program that I would continue as long as progress was objectively demonstrated, and the trainers were not endangered. I would implement the intelligence measures discussed above, and identify, monitor and eliminate as appropriate any al Qaeda cells or operatives.
Now YOU tell ME, Dorn, if it is so necessitous that we have 100k troops on the ground in A'stan to prevent some potential attack in the future whose success is contingent on our failure to stop it by other means (this is Cheney's 1% Doctrine in action), then why isn't it equally necessitous for us to invade and occupy a dozen other hinterlands worldwide? After all, al Qaeda either is there, or may well be there, carrying on their local machinations and dreaming of attacking us.
Let me clue you in. We're in A'stan because we're in A'stan. We're there because we're there. Not because it's a War of Necessity. It isn't. Given extant circumstances, we wouldn't parachute in 100k (or any amount) of soldiers if we weren't there already. But we're there, and we're going to escalate because to do anything else would expose Obama and Dems to an epic "cut and run" flogging by maniacal Republicans bent on portraying Dems in general and Obama in particular as "weak on national security." And, sadly, they MIGHT make electoral hay, and MIGHT gain an uncertain number of congressional seats because of it. Obama wants to avoid that, and has calculated this is the best way. It's pure domestic politics.
I personally couldn't play domestic politics with the lives and treasure of the United States like Bush did, and like Obama is now doing. I think the American voting public FINALLY saw through and rejected Republican propaganda in the 06 and 08 elections, and would have rewarded a firm withdrawal of American forces and forceful refutation of the Republican reasons for their presence to begin with. But our national Democratic party has proved in the past and continues to prove it has a short memory when it comes to what the people want.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
AJM
December 10, 2009 9:49 PM in reply to wye
Not clear that Obama is solely playing domestic politics if he is in fact staying in Afghanistan to avoid electoral defeat -- it might be foreign policy that he is playing -- if the Rethuglicans are returned to power how long before we are at war with Iran?
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
wye
December 11, 2009 9:57 AM in reply to AJM
I sympathize with your point, AJM, and it has occurred to me. The premise that the greatest danger to the national security of this country is the Republicans regaining control of the government is enough to make one's head explode. As is implementing what would otherwise be suboptimal foreign policy with the primary (but unstated) purpose of keeping Republicans down. Thousands of dead soldiers and a trillion dollars is a small price to pay. ***BOOOOOOMMMMMM***
If we have really come to this extremity, anyone who still cares should just leave. Move to a more sane country.
I don't think we're "all the way" there yet, but we're too close for comfort on the spectrum, and political calculations are part of the equation. Perhaps the largest of the several variables. That's sad -- a catastrophe, really -- in a Democratic administration. Of course, it's been core Republican Policy -- milking The War on Terror for political gain -- for a decade.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
barth
December 11, 2009 11:23 AM in reply to wye
Afghanistan is different than any other place. It is where Al Qaeda was based when it set in motion an attack which killed over 3000 people in our country whose only "crime" was going to work. It has the potential to use such a base to conduct similar attacks on the country to Afghanistan's immediate east: a nuclear power of sorts.
War is rarely justifiable, but allowing this to take place and endanger so many others would be an abdication of responsibility for the safety and well being of our citizens and those of many countries that would almost dwarf the many other times our nation and others have looked elsewhere with disastrous consequences.
I am unclear as to the best course of action in Afghanistan, but trust this President to do what should be done.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
EricR11
December 10, 2009 2:36 PM
Everyone, please, hold on, hold on - there's a hell of a lot to digest here, as Mr. Kurtz indicated in his link. Take a pause, please. People here and elsewhere are especially rabid and quick to henpeck this speech to death with their own agenda, as if they alone understood everything important said here. Just for the deep insights and reflections alone that he raises here for everyone, this might be the most significant and courageous speech our President has made yet. And that's no small feat, considering his gift of oratory, not to mention the extremely difficult position he finds himself in. I sure would not pretend to know what to say or do in this situation if I had to trade places with him at this moment.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 10, 2009 2:49 PM in reply to EricR11
Obama made a great speech, probably one of his best, if not his best. I always feel great pride when he does that - just not having to think about the crude nonsense uttered by Bush is such a relief it's hard to even do it justice in a few words.
But, Obama is our president, serving because we elected him, and answerable to us. That makes it important that we keep an eye and ear open to catch what he is saying. When he says something that we think is wrong, and terribly wrong, we have the obligation to speak up. If he doesn't expect or want this I will be astonished.
I don't defend every last thing my own family members do. In fact I can be and have been highly critical of some things they do. I owe Obama no less.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
johnnyba
December 11, 2009 11:51 AM in reply to hoppycalif2
I'm sounding like a broken record here I know but hoppycalif2 I think your response misses the point that EricR11 was making. You respond on the basis of "knowing" that Obama is wrong. Well, how do you know? What facts guided your reason?
"That makes it important that we keep an eye and ear open to catch what he is saying"
It is much more important that you think about what he is saying thoroughly rather than just react to it based on your own predisposition.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
hoppycalif2
December 11, 2009 1:44 PM in reply to johnnyba
Don't put words in my mouth (in my comment?). I posted "When he says something that we think is wrong, and terribly wrong, we have the obligation to speak up." Note that I used the word "think", not "know". And, that is such a basic obligation that citizens have that I'm surprised there could be a question about it.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
sabocat
December 10, 2009 6:09 PM
A lot to digest, huh? I feel like throwing up. Totally disgusting. Can you say-- LBJ, go away? The worst was the comparison between Hitler and Al Qaeda. He's not just channeling George Bush, he's staking out new territory.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
johnnyba
December 11, 2009 10:55 AM in reply to sabocat
"I feel like throwing up"
Sorry to hear that but I feel like disregarding any commentary based on somebodies intense emotions rather than facts. It's just not useful.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
sabocat
December 10, 2009 6:30 PM
What is really interesting to me is reading some of the comments in defense of Obama's plan to expand the war in Afghanistan and Pakistan. They sound just like the republicans defending Bush's plan to invade Iraq and attack Afghanistan. Absolutely no difference.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
jenesq
December 11, 2009 9:44 AM in reply to sabocat
You see no difference between Iraq and Afghanistan? That is absolutely simpleminded. Your POV is a prime example of the intellectually dishonest "poutrage" so common among the so--called "netroots." Honestly, the "Obama=Bush" crowd is no better than the most knuckle-dragging teabagger in terms of the factual basis for their anger.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
jenesq
December 11, 2009 9:41 AM
This was a very thought-provoking speech that will, it seems, sail over the head of the Internet generation as well as the one-dimensional (war or peace! right or wrong!) types. I suppose it's unfortunate that he couldn't just Twitter it, but alas, some thoughts defy expression in 140 characters.
President Obama crystallized the complexity caused by opposing forces of human nature--the greed and the selflessness, the bellicose and the peaceful. President Obama could withdraw all our troops from every corner of the globe and dissolve our military and that would not lead to peace, because human nature doesn't change like that--never has, never will.
President Obama is a visionary pragmatist--he has ideals, but knows he's going to have to compromise in order to move even a little bit toward those ideals. That seems to be a wise philosophy that it utterly lost on the reactionary left as well as the reactionary right.
Truly, it seems to me that some of President Obama's critics on the left are just looking for something to bitch about, because their whole political POV is based on outrage--outrage that doesn't have to make sense, just outrage that must find a cause (no matter how one-dimensional or unrealistic).
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
barth
December 11, 2009 11:14 AM in reply to jenesq
I agree with everything you said here, but your first paragraph is really excellent and makes a very important (and sad) point.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
johnnyba
December 11, 2009 11:28 AM in reply to jenesq
"sail over the head of the Internet generation"
Heh, well I probably would have said something sarcastic about the Woodstock generation here instead as they seem to be the ones with the most trouble grasping the need for balance between extremes. But yes, I agree with your thoughts. When I read the part in "Dreams of my Father" when he describes his step father in Indonesia pulling him aside to explain the cold hard facts governing the world while his mother gave her money away to the desperate throng I realized that it was a central piece of his character that his biggest detractors and supporters at the time missed and would define his presidency. He is somebody who understands the reality of the world from the bottom up in a way that few Americans from these fat and happy generations do. This speech reminded me of that once again.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Leduck BndFrmHUFFPO
December 11, 2009 2:17 PM
The best part of the speech deals with non-violent resistance. I believe non-violent resistance needs to be used more often, but it will not work in every conflict.
However...,
a Speech on ecnomics or war and peace that ignores DEPLETION of natural resources, is a speech that ignores reality and the future we are headed for.
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?
Tosh
May 16, 2010 6:30 PM
First, I will admit that Obama does pay better lip service than other presidents to global issues. However, just because he is better than Nixon, Regan, Clinton, Bush, etc does not make him exempt from being complicit in supporting tyranny. Obama had a incredible ability to change the United States stance on a ton of issues, and supporting outdated Just War theory is not one of them. His mistake will only lead to more colonial terror by the west in the future.
Second, you originally posted that Obama may be able to provide for world peace in 8 years with 'hard work'. Now, you state that political parties are not capable of helping with third world problems. I would agree with this sentiment. Furthermore, the political parties, as supported by Corporate institutions looking to exploit territory for profit, must be worked against. It does not appear that the 'hard work' by these millions of people are guided properly. This is not a matter of humanitarian effort, but of fundamental resistance to the political parties and corporations as they are currently formed.
m65 kamagra
Reply | Flag Abuse
Are you sure this comment violates TPM's Terms of Service?