TN Mayor Calls Obama A Muslim In Racist Facebook Rant

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 6:07 PM in reply to Jimmy Blue

Who is the idiot? You folks seem to be fine with accusing this man of writing a "racist" rant when it was nothing of the sort. Islam is not a race, in case you didn't know; it is a religion, which, like all religions, involves adherence to a set of dogmas. And if you believe those dogmas to be in error, you will not think it's positive when someone embraces the religion.

Thus, dislike his comments if you wish, but don't you believe honesty in discourse matters? Calling this man's commentary "racist" is like me calling you a child molester. The latter has just as much basis in reality.

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rwc

December 5, 2009 6:21 PM in reply to Paladin

yea, right, Obama is a Muslim and I'm Santa Clause.

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jal1

December 5, 2009 6:42 PM in reply to Paladin

"you know, our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote, if that has stayed in there, things would be different..."

He is saying if only rich white men could vote Obama would not be president. Sounds racist to me.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 6:49 PM in reply to jal1

Ah, dishonest to the last. He didn't say anything about only white people voting; he said property owners, and, as you know, all sorts of folks own property today.

Does lying really mean nothing to you?

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DemFacts

December 5, 2009 7:25 PM in reply to Paladin

One problem with the guy's whole argument on voting is that the "original" Constitution never said anything about a property requirement to vote. That was something states did, and starting just a few years after the constitution was ratified, led by that conservative bastion of New Hampshire, states started dropping that requirement.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 7:49 PM in reply to DemFacts

I realize that, but it isn't the issue here. I actually agree that the country would be infinitely better if only property owners voted, and I have no problem with all of them voting, regardless of race. The point if that there was nothing "racist" in the mayor's commentary.

Part of being a good person is being honest in debate and not accusing others falsely, unjustly and rashly. If you want to say that the mayor is wrong or idiotic, that's one thing; it's unlikely to be a lie (unless you don't really believe what you're saying). But when you descend into deceit for the purposes of character assassination, it says two things. First, you're a bad person, likely worse than your target. Second, it has to make people wonder if you're target is really as bad as you're casting him to be. After all, if he were that bad, why would you have to lie about him? The truth would be damning enough.

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tremulant

December 5, 2009 11:28 PM in reply to Paladin

paladin look up the term "race" in the dictionary. it doesn't solely mean caucasian, african, etc. in fact, ill do you a favor. here's the definition: a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group. an ethnic group is also considered a race. therefore, this crackpot is being racist.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 11:48 PM in reply to tremulant

Tremulant,

A fascinating man you are. Your sloppy writing mirrors your sloppy thinking (as to this, the key you need is called the "shift" key). You seek to correct me using a dictionary definition, but the one you provide refutes your own position. The point is that Muslims do not all share the same culture, history and language; they are not all of the same ethnic group. There are Asian Muslims in Indonesia, and different Asian Muslims in Pakistan. There are Arab Muslims in North Africa and black Muslims below the Sahara Desert. There are white Muslims in Albania and even some in the West (Richard Reed ring a bell?). Need I go on? Do you feel sufficiently foolish yet? To say all Muslims are of the same ethnic group is like saying all Catholics are, despite there being more than a billion of each around the world.

In fact, if anything is bigoted, it's sloppily saying that all Muslims are of one race, which is your implication.

It's unbelievable that I even have to explain these things. Do you really want to keep acting like a child?

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arias

December 6, 2009 4:24 AM in reply to Paladin

Paladin,

You are unquestionably dense. You claim:

"The point is that Muslims do not all share the same culture, history and language; they are not all of the same ethnic group. There are Asian Muslims in Indonesia, and different Asian Muslims in Pakistan. There are Arab Muslims in North Africa and black Muslims below the Sahara Desert. There are white Muslims in Albania and even some in the West ... blah blah"

The same could be said for Jews. They are not all of the same ethnic group. There are African Israeli Jews from Ethiopia, Indian Jews, Chinese Kaifeng Jews, as well as the more well known Ashkenazim and Sephardim Jews. Yet if such stupid talk you're attempting to defend were made with regards to Judaism instead of Islam it would most certainly be perceived as anti-semitic and racist. Feeling stupid yet? You should.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 5:01 AM in reply to arias

Arias,

Nice try. As you know, "anti-Semitic" has come to mean anti-Jewish; if it means anything else, it is in accurate. After all, as you also probably know, Arabs are Semites as well.

Thus, if you wanted to accuse the mayor of being anti-Muslim, it might be accurate (I'm anti-Muslim myself, in that I view Islam as a destructive force). However, that was not the accusation; the accusation was the childish, worn-out one of "racism." Words have definitions, whether you like it or not.

I notice that you ignored the point about Catholicism. If someone criticized it — or criticized Catholics — would you call the person "racist"? So, come now, while I don't expect you to be man enough to admit it, you're simply wrong on this point.

Anyway, whether or not you cede the point to me, I hope you'll be honest with yourself and admit the truth in your own mind. The most dangerous thing is when a person deceives himself.

Sadly, though, this is a liberal specialty.

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Heliades

December 6, 2009 7:00 AM in reply to Paladin

Well than, we'll use something other than racist than. Intolerant? Xenophobic? Sectarian? Narrow-Minded?

Also, I'd like to point out that black people are a "race" and there are black Americans, black Canadians, black Chinese, black French. So, if the only thing keeping Muslims from being a race is that some live in different areas, or have different beliefs, than I think that argument might be very moot.

They are a separate culture, some of which are quite peaceful and believe that hostility and war are evil. Yet, you are judging a while culture by the actions of the extreme. This is the same thing the rest of the world did to America while Bush was president, and the only thing it causes is strife and war.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 9:40 AM in reply to Heliades

Heliades,

You wrote:

"Well than, we'll use something other than racist than. Intolerant? Xenophobic? Sectarian? Narrow-Minded?"

Ah, there you go! You see, now you're starting to get it. While I wouldn't agree with such a characterization of the esteemed mayor, it is entirely possible that someone who impugns a religion could be intolerant, xenophobic, sectarian or narrow-Minded. But, owing to the fact that words have definitions, such a person could not, on the basis of impugning a religion alone, be called a "racist."

Also, I'd like to point out that black people are a "race" and there are black Americans, black Canadians, black Chinese, black French. So, if the only thing keeping Muslims from being a race is that some live in different areas, or have different beliefs, than I think that argument might be very moot.

Pity that. You were doing so well, so much better than the others, with their ideology-compromised gray matter. It is getting a little tedious handling these 50 mph marshmallows lobbed right over the plate, but here we go.

Black people are a race because they are a race. You are either born black or you're not; if the former, you cannot cease being black (Michael Jackson notwithstanding), and if the latter, you cannot become black. It is a physical characteristic. And black people can believe anything under the sun.

Being Muslim, however, is not a physical characteristic; it denotes the embrace of a faith. Thus, you can cease to be Muslim or become Muslim; in fact, these things happen all the time. The former is known as apostasy and the latter as conversion (although I prefer to say, respectively, self-improvement and degradation). Perhaps you've heard of them. Moreover, since Islam is a faith, being Muslim involves the embrace of certain dogmas. For example, you cannot believe that Christ is Lord and in the Holy Trinity if you're a Muslim.

Ergo, Muslims are not a race; the only association they can have with one another is that of being co-religionists.

There's something you folks need to learn: You can dance around the truth till you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the truth. You're still wrong as long as you choose to dance. As one of your icons, Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, "You're entitled to your own opinions, but you're not entitled to your own facts."

Now, isn't this childish and a waste of time? My point has been proven more than once, so why not just cede the point, call the mayor some more appropriate pejorative and put the issue to bed. Then we can move on to the next topic.

They are a separate culture, some of which are quite peaceful and believe that hostility and war are evil. Yet, you are judging a while culture by the actions of the extreme. This is the same thing the rest of the world did to America while Bush was president, and the only thing it causes is strife and war.

Yes, some do believe war is evil. Of course, though, some would argue that those individuals don't embrace true Islam. Regardless, they are not one culture but, again, just, at best, co-religionists. The differences between the culture of Pakistani Muslims and that of Albanian Muslims is profound.

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JEP07

December 6, 2009 4:53 PM in reply to Paladin

"Islam as a destructive force"

I think you are blaming the message for the sins of the messengers.

Jesus' own Galilean neighbors tried to throw him of a cliff when he recalled all the blessings God that were proffered on Gentiles in the Pentateuch, including eunuchs and harlots.

That mob that tried to throw Jesus off the cliff is the SAME mob that hung those contractors in Fallujah, the same mob that destroyed the homes and businesses of German Jews on Kristallnacht, and the SAME mob that lives in every "faction" of zealots by any label. They are currently residing in the teabagger movement, more than once on the edge of proving they are a mob. They are the same mob that called for Jesus' crucifixion at the urging of the Sanhedrin.

That mob is also exemplified by it's counterpart in Islamic communities, and blaming Islam for the native and primal motivations of "The Mob" is no different than blaming all Germans for what the Nazis among them did, or blaming all Jews for Jesus' crucifixion.

It is the mob,and their snarling provocateurs who are to blame, regardless of what label they identify themselves with.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 6:48 PM in reply to JEP07

Jep07,

"Islam as a destructive force"

I think you are blaming the message for the sins of the messengers.

Now, I think it's good that you're delving into something somewhat substantive, as opposed to insisting that a man who expresses a distaste for a religion is a "racist." So far you have it all over the posters here.

You say I'm blaming the message for the sins of the messengers, and, yes, this often happens with all sorts of messages. Yet, I have to ask, are you sure you know what Islam's message is? If you assume it's peaceful, why do you jump to this conclusion? Are religions by definition peaceful? I'm sure you know history well enough to realize this isn't true, as most religions for most of the world's existence prescribed things such as human sacrifice. And, given this, why do you assume all religions today would have to be peaceful? Do you assume all ideologies are so? It not, why do you make such an assumption about religion? Remember that just as different ideologies espouse different values, so do different religions. And it is those values that determine whether or not the religion is good or bad, peaceful or not so. So, I think you're taking a lot for granted. A little more scrutiny is in order.

As for the mobs, I certainly agree that you find them in many stripes; however, there is no question that the left is more violent. Do you not remember the black fellow (I think he was at a town hall protest) who was beaten up by a liberal mob a little while back? How about the liberal students who stormed the stage at Columbia University when the Minutemen were scheduled to speak? How about the homosexuals after Proposition 8 who called black folks n*ggers and ripped a cross out of a woman's hand? Shall I go on? It is very difficult to find corresponding violence perpetrated by conservatives in our time. For instance, you cite the teabaggers, but I don't remember them committing such acts. Of course, you can probably dig up an example, but you won't find the litany of examples that can be found on the left.

Lastly, getting back to Islam, most of the folks here dislike conservatives, and virtually all liberals dislike conservatism. Well, if you can dislike conservatism based on its dogmas, why can't I dislike Islam based on its dogmas? Would you say about conservatism what you did about Islam, that liberals are blaming the message for the messengers?

Moreover, I would ask those who hurl the r word: Are you racist because you dislike conservatives or conservatism? If not, why is someone racist for disliking Muslims or Islam? Just as disliking conservatism simply makes you anti-conservative (as well as wrong ;o)), disliking Islam simply makes you anti-Islamic.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 11:56 AM in reply to Paladin

Paladin,
An ethnic group is a group of people that share common culture, religion, history, or language. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that earlier. I didn't know I had to give you another definition. The legal definition of racial discrimination does not distinguish between race and ethnicity. Racial discrimination is any discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race. Abusive behavior, in this case, in the form of libel. People, especially public officials, are liable for what they post on the internet, whether it be on Facebook or not. So if this mayor is racially discriminating, wouldn't that in turn make him a racist? Hopefully those are enough definitions. Please respond in a mature manner. You call me childish yet it is you that is attacking other people's views with snide responses. Keep it about the argument.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 12:50 PM in reply to tremulant

Tremulant,

Now I have to wonder about your definition of "mature." How is it mature to be completely incorrect but yet continue to espouse the same, already refuted argument? You wrote:

"An ethnic group is a group of people that share common culture, religion, history, or language. I'm sorry I didn't clarify that earlier."

You made your misconception clear earlier. As I told you, not all Muslims share the same language, culture or history; in fact, given all the sects in Islam, the case could be made that they don't even share the same religion. Regardless, your definition simply does not apply. They are not the same ethnic group, and no demographer will tell you they are.

But you're probably right about one thing. I was wrong to call you childish, as such a steadfast refusal to accept truth — that is, outright denial of reality — is more akin to mental illness. It is only pride preventing you from ceding an already made point. Again, however, dance all you like, but it doesn't change reality.

Although I'm probably wasting my time, I have two questions for you: Would you call all Catholics members of the same ethnic group? Would you call anti-Catholic feelings "racist"?

Let's see if you can answer those questions honestly.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 1:36 PM in reply to Paladin

Paladin,
I can ask a demographer and he will tell me one thing and I can ask an anthropologist and he will tell me another. This mayor WAS being derogatory against a group of people- Muslims. He is guilty of libel towards President Obama. And ok, all other technical definitions aside, the racist element does come up in another part of the article- "you know, our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote, if that has stayed in there, things would be different..." which implies (and obviously implications are enough to satisfy your arguments and retorts) that it would be better if we had only white-male landowners voting. And seriously, there's no point attacking another person simply for their views (I could easily call you a right-wing obnoxious pig that probably lives in the basement of his parents at 30 years old and lives off of whatever crap he sees on Fox News, but that doesn't do anything except cause ill will in an argument that requires none). Keep it civil.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 1:46 PM in reply to tremulant

Tremulant,

The first imperative of civility is honesty is discourse, and you have showed yourself to be sorely lacking in that area. Without honesty, discussion is a waste of time. Anyway, you know the truth here, whether you're willing to admit it or not. And, no, I don't need an admission. It would do you more good than it would do me.

You are correct to say that he impugned a group, that being Muslims. I join him in his suspicion of Islam. And if you want to call us anti-Islamic, you'll get no argument from me.

As for landowners, all sorts of people own land today, and it's ridiculous, and rash, to assume that he only means whites when he said landowners.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 1:56 PM in reply to Paladin

You know very well that in that context he certainly implied more than simply property. He definitely meant one perspective of property (the forefathers'). You can look at property several ways. I could state that every person owns something that is privately proper to them and I would be completely correct. Property is not the resources themselves, but the *ownership* of the resources. I could easily say that a person's freedom is privately proper to himself. Therefore, you have to take the context into account. He was already impugning on Muslims and then proceeds to make this comment. His implications are obvious and therefore warrants the title given to the article and accusation made on the mayor.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 6:25 PM in reply to tremulant

Tremulant,

No, the implication you claim to discern is not clear. I agree that the nation would be better if only landowners voted, and I have no problem with ALL landowners voting. Regardless, the imperatives of good journalism dictate that one not jump to conclusions and try to divine what might be in a man's mind, not in a news piece, anyway. And that's what this writer did. She cited a report as if she was quoting it when said piece did not make the "racist" claim. Thus, she should have either made her drivel an op/ed or she should have adhered to the principles of journalism and presented only the facts of the story.

Anyway, you seem bent on calling this man a racist no matter the facts. It's mostly ego at this point (you not wishing to admit error), but OK. You can call him a racist, but that doesn't carry much weight coming from a child molester, which is what you are. How do I know? I just do. It's obvious based on your presentation. You can discern certain things about the mayor, and I can discern certain harder to apprehend things about you based on very subtle cues. My discernment is better.

Stay away from the kids.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 6:53 PM in reply to Paladin

Hahaha Paladin. Finally, a very big chink in your armor. You've been reduced to using insults so pathetic that they aren't even relatable to the subject matter. Sticks and stones, Paladin. Anyway, back to the topic. You are complaining about the validity of news pieces? Do you know anything about the news? Here's a News Flash for you: Almost every political news that you hear is biased. Take everything with a grain of salt. Based on what this news piece has shown, it seems like the mayor is racist. Of course that's not written in stone somewhere. People are free to make their own judgments and to research into it more themselves if they wish. What, you think everything you hear on Fox News (and obviously you watch it) is true and an example of good journalism? Hate to burst your bubble, my friend. Of course the implication is not clear to you. Any implication can be unclear if you refuse to recognize it. The fact is that it's there whether you choose to recognize it or not. The news piece has sufficient evidence to make a racism claim. Now if you have any other immature insults to throw at me, go ahead. I'll take them in stride. I'm a little happy that you've degraded yourself more with those insults than me. It only means that my point of view is getting to you. And funny you haven't said anything to my entry about why exactly the mayor is calling Obama a Muslim in the first place. Riddle me that, Paladin.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 7:01 PM in reply to tremulant

I didn't insult you, Trem, I've just discerned that you're a child molester in just the way you discerned that the mayor is a racist. I just know.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 1:47 PM in reply to tremulant

And on what grounds is this mayor calling Obama a Muslim? Because of his name? Last I checked, your name does not define what religion you follow. That part also seems a bit racist, don't you think?

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JEP07

December 6, 2009 5:03 PM in reply to tremulant

On the grounds that it incites ignorant knuckledraggers to displays of public insolence and occasional violence, and that gratifies their ultra-conservative southern bigot capaign contributors to pony up more mad money for their "campaigns."

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 6:59 PM in reply to tremulant

Tremulant,

I already addressed this. Here is what I wrote:

While I don't believe Obama is a Muslim per se, he does have a Muslim background. As I'm sure you realize, some of his relatives were Muslim, he lived in Indonesia during some of his formative years, attended a Muslim school while there, and sometimes attended mosque. Does this matter? Well, before that can even be discussed, there must be an acknowledgment of what the facts are. And it always gives pause for thought when people try to hide things.

When you have a certain background, Tremulant, and you try to hide it as he attempted to do during the campaign, people will become suspicious. Add to this Obama's obsequious attitude with respect to the Muslim world and his ability to pronounce Arabic words with seemingly perfect pronunciation, and they will become even more suspicious. That doesn't meant they're correct. But it's silly to act as if you haven't the foggiest idea where the accusation comes from.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 7:11 PM in reply to Paladin

It's fine to have suspicions, Paladin. But to accuse someone of being something that they have stated that they are not and then insulting the group itself isn't exactly an admirable quality. Especially when it's a public official. So the mayor is Anti-Islam? Why not Anti-Religion? Almost every religion has extremists, some more than others at different points in time. It doesn't make sense just to be against one religion unless every single member of it is doing some harm.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 7:41 PM in reply to tremulant

"It's fine to have suspicions, Paladin. But to accuse someone of being something that they have stated that they are not and then insulting the group itself isn't exactly an admirable quality."

Very good, Trem, perhaps you'll get it after all. Note that you've been accusing the mayor of being something he has stated he is not.

As for a religion, it's adherents' behavior is largely irrelevant. A religion has certain teachings, certain dogmas, and it is these that a wise person judges. It is just as with Nazism. Not every Nazi behaved like Goebbels, Hitler or Himler, yet we wouldn't say that we couldn't judge Nazism as evil unless all of its supposed adherents behaved in the same evil manner. No, we judge the dogmas of the ideology; it sinks or swims on its own merits.

You would be wise to just listen and learn, to develop a teachable spirit. I can help you to understand truth, but you need to open the door. And if you do, maybe you can stop being a child molester.

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 9:17 PM in reply to Paladin

Surely you aren't implying that Islam is the only one with these "unfavorable" teachings and dogmas. Christianity is full of them as well. So why not be Anti-Christian? Every religion has certain teachings and dogmas, but it is up to the follower to interpret them. The actions of such extremist individuals is therefore almost (and I repeat, almost) fully dependent on their interpretation of religion. Christianity has seen many extremists over the course of history, if you will recall. And sinks or swims? I think by now Islam has stood the test of time and definitely swims with its millions of followers. I think condemning just one religion based on it's extremists is pretty backward thinking. I also highly doubt you have gone to the length of studying the Quran for yourself and actually making your opinion based on its teachings.
And yeah give me proof and I'll say it's ok to call President Obama a muslim because with proof that's what he'd be. But there has been no real proof. The statements quoted in the article are evidence enough to call the mayor a racist. I'm sure you'll reply by bashing this proof as nothing of the sort, but to any person not fully stuck up the rear end of the elephant, it is clear that the mayor was being a racist and a libeler.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 9:34 PM in reply to tremulant

Again, you are wrong. As wrong as wrong can be. There is no more proof that the mayor is a racist than there is that Obama is a Muslim. And, anyway, who cares if someone is a racist? You may be lustful, greedy, gluttonous or have some other sin with which you struggle. You leftists act as if we should accept that your greatest sin, racism, is the end-all and be-all. Well, it's not. And you folks have so discredited the word by bandying it about loosely, that it's losing it's meaning. So, fine, I'm a racist, you're a racist, everyone is a racist. Who cares? It's all a matter of perspective anyway in your relativistic universe, right?

As for religions, again, different ones involve different values; therefore, they cannot all be morally equal. And if you can dislike conservatism because you've judged its values to be wanting, why can I not dislike Islam for the same reason?

Sorry, but what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I have judged Islam in the way your set has judged conservatism, and I don't like it. So I'm an anti-Islamic racist and you're an anti-conservative racist. And as your side would say, everyone has his own truth, so who are you to judge? Don't impose your values on me.

However, do you really want to be a child molester?

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tremulant

December 6, 2009 10:01 PM in reply to Paladin

"Don't impose your values on me." Ahh. That's exactly what I was waiting for. I hope you've learned your lesson now. Don't impose your values and insult those that don't agree with your views. I'm content.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 10:17 PM in reply to tremulant

"I hope you've learned your lesson now. Don't impose your values and insult those that don't agree with your views. I'm content."

I was hoping you'd learned yours. By telling me not to insult those who don't agree with my views, you're seeking to impose your values on me. My values say that I can insult such people, that Islam is evil and that Muslims are a menace. And since, by your lights, there's no transcendent truth to refer to to determine who is right, I suppose all we can do is fight. After all, if we can't settle things using reason — if each of us will just embrace what feels right to us — then might makes right.

Too bad for you, because you would never want to fight me. Of that you can be sure. You'd lose just as ignominiously as you have here in this debate.

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Basha

December 5, 2009 8:14 PM in reply to Paladin

Being from Canada, it's troubling to see how deeply divided people are based on political values that were instilled by their parents and a general fear that the president may not infact, be a Christian.

Besides the fact that it's really a non-issue, and that Obama is a Christian, it's baffling to see the fear and ignorance that comes out of these people. Let's for a second think, if you did have a president that was Muslim, Jewish, Buddist or Sikh, heck maybe even an Athiest... Why is this an issue.

Before you go off on how they're going to take away your guns, put minarets on the churches and turn everything Pinko red. You really have to think. If I'm not mistaken(and it's quite possible that I am) there is a seperation of Church and State. The government has no right in the religious affairs of it's citizens. It's the same way I can't believe that the right to an abortion or subsidized health care are things some people would rather not have.

Next time anyone's about to go off on Right Wing this, or Left Wing that. Stop. Look at the facts, construct a clear and concise response and then discuss it.

This Mayor did not do this and his true colors were shown. He's afraid of something different (muslims) and he's mis-informed. A terrible combination.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 11:55 PM in reply to Basha

Actually, Basha, there is no "separation of church and state" in our Constitution; that is a myth. What is correct to say is that our activist Supreme Court has misinterpreted the First Amendment to mean that since 1947. but that's a different issue.

The point is that the government doesn't make the people — the people make the government. Let Muslims become numerous enough, and you won't have separation of church and state. You'll have Sharia Law (at least to some extent), and perhaps prohibitions against practicing other faiths.

They'll also put the kibosh on liberalism, though, which will be poetic justice and delicious irony.

Wise up.

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jenesq

December 6, 2009 10:35 AM in reply to Paladin

What an idiotic thing to say. You know what protects us from legislation based on religious beliefs? The separation of church and state! You know, the one wingnuts want to ignore when it is THEIR religious beliefs they want to legislate for everyone else. Legislating religious beliefs for an entire population who may or may not share those beliefs is a bad, bad, bad idea no matter whose religious beliefs we're talking about. If you fear sharia law, then you shouldn't be pushing legislated evangelical Christian values on everyone.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 1:07 PM in reply to jenesq

Jenesq:

You wrote:

What an idiotic thing to say. You know what protects us from legislation based on religious beliefs? The separation of church and state! You know, the one wingnuts want to ignore when it is THEIR religious beliefs they want to legislate for everyone else. Legislating religious beliefs for an entire population who may or may not share those beliefs is a bad, bad, bad idea no matter whose religious beliefs we're talking about. If you fear sharia law, then you shouldn't be pushing legislated evangelical Christian values on everyone.

First, nothing protects us from legislation based on religious beliefs, as all morals are religious in nature. And while the explanation for this is too involved to do justice here (and I won't waste that much time with deniers of reality), I'll illustrate in a simple way. Our blanket prohibition against murder is based on the Commandment, "Thou shalt do no murder." (Note that most pre-Christian cultures didn't have such a blanket prohibition.)

Moreover, something is only "wrong" if Absolute Truth exists, if something apart from man and above him dictates it's so. Otherwise, all our prohibitions — including that against murder — are simply reflections of peoples' opinion.

As for me being an evangelical, as you learned reading a later post, I'm nothing of the sort. So it was another example of liberal prejudices coloring liberals' judgment. You would be wise to try to learn more and assume less. Not every "Christian" who disagrees with your PC values is a "fundamentalist" (hardly any fundies actually exist, and no liberal can actually define the word) or an evangelical.

As far as what evangelicals would say about me, they are as wrong as your set. Again, reality is what it is whether we like it or not. My church has been around for nigh on two-thousand years (the word "catholic" was already used in the 100s). How long has their church been around for?

They only exist because Martin Luther started a heresy in the 1520s, which then splintered further, the inevitable fate of heresies. And if evangelicals would have been Christian 1000 years ago, they would have been Catholic.

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jenesq

December 7, 2009 10:10 AM in reply to Paladin

Talk about assumptions! Many liberals go to church too...some of them are even Catholics....perhaps even went to Catholic schools. lol

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 1:14 PM in reply to jenesq

I forgot to mention one thing. The only thing the First Amendment is meant to protect us from is the establishment of a national church; thus the Establishment Clause. The "separation of church and state," however, is not found in the Constitution. That idea is a misinterpretation that wasn't foisted on the American people till 1947, in a legal, but not "lawful," opinion written by Hugo Black. Do you know that Black had been a Klansman? And that was what colored his judgment on the matter; he disliked Catholics, and he, like some other Protestants, believed that the separation shtick was a way to suppress their power.

By the way, I doubt you could even quote the First Amendment for me if asked on the spot. But don't bother now, as I know you can look it up in 60 seconds.

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jenesq

December 7, 2009 10:08 AM in reply to Paladin

Wow, are you a lawyer too? I'd challenge you to a Constitutional law faceoff any day.

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Paladin

December 7, 2009 11:18 AM in reply to jenesq

You'd lose.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 12:16 AM in reply to Basha

I should have mentioned a few more things, Basha. While I don't believe Obama is a Muslim per se, he does have a Muslim background. As I'm sure you realize, some of his relatives were Muslim, he lived in Indonesia during some of his formative years, attended a Muslim school while there, and sometimes attended mosque. Does this matter? Well, before that can even be discussed, there must be an acknowledgment of what the facts are. And it always gives pause for thought when people try to hide things.

As for Obama being a Christian, that's a stretch if there ever was one. If Christianity can mean anything, it means nothing (Catholicism is true Christianity, for the record). Obama attended a racist black church that subscribed to what's known as "black liberation theology" and where the hateful, bigoted preaching of Rev. Wrong was cheered. That is not Christianity.

And whether you're willing to admit it or not, you know this is true. Would you call Aryan nations type churches in which they preach white supremacy "Christian"? If so, you need to think more deeply about the matter of definitions.

As for guns, you are the one who needs to think — and study. Politicians will say what they have to to get elected, and it is only a fool who takes their promises at face value. While a senator, Obama proposed a bill stating that gun stores would not be allowed within 5 miles of a school or park. This, I should point out, is not only unconstitutional (it's not the role of the feds), it also would have removed gun stores from most of the populated portions of the nation. And it certainly wouldn't have done anything to prevent crime, so what was its practical purpose? Answer: It was a step toward the criminalization of guns. It was part of an incrementalist strategy.

Of course, this is no surprise. This is what liberals do — they believe in ever more gun control laws and, in many cases, a complete prohibition against firearm ownership. In fact, many of the posters here take this position, only, they aren't honest enough to admit it. That's part of the incrementalist strategy.

The only question is, are you one of these dishonest individuals or are you just too naive to discern their machinations?

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jenesq

December 6, 2009 10:38 AM in reply to Paladin

Jesus, is that you? I mean, who else has the right to define what Christianity is and is not?

I did have to LOL especially at the assertion that Catholicism is true Christianity. Ask any evangelical fundamentalist, and they'll tell you that Catholics are not Christians. Some of them even think that the Pope is the antichrist.

The definition of "Christian" may be up for debate, but the definition of "batshit crazy" is pretty obvious.

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Freaktank

December 6, 2009 4:19 AM in reply to Paladin

Paladin, clearly you are the idiot. 1. President Obama is not a Muslim, so regardless of the depth of your insight regarding the difference between race and religion, it is irrelevant to this discussion. 2. Idiot Mayor Wiseman is most likely a racist because if President Obama was caucasian or had a name that sounded caucasian, like Green or Schultz for instance, he wouldn't have a problem with the interruption of the Peanut's Christmas Special nor would he falsely accuse the President of being a muslim. Based on your ridiculous defense of Mayor idiot as well as your assertions about voting and property ownership I can only infer that you too are a racist or at the very least a reactionary.

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Paladin

December 6, 2009 5:12 AM in reply to Freaktank

Freaktank,

First, I really couldn't care less what you conclude about me. Second, it's not a matter of my "insights into the difference between race and religion"; it's simply the truth. Words have meanings. And if you won't even acknowledge basic definitions, there can't be a discussion. Is it really so hard to say, "OK, the guy is anti-Muslim"? After all, I'm sure that's a great sin in your eyes. As for "racism," by tossing the term around so loosely you leftists are slowly rendering it meaningless, which is fine by me. Keep it up.

As for how the mayor would react if the president were all white (as opposed to half white), you have no way of knowing. You are simply projecting feelings and motivations on him, and it is an interpretation that is a function of your own prejudices. Believe it or not, there are millions of Americans who hold statist figures in utter contempt, be they Obama, George Soros and Hillary Clinton or someone else.

Again, your discernment is not that acute. You have no idea what is in the mayor's mind and heart, despite your delusions to the contrary.

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December 7, 2009 2:11 PM in reply to Paladin

The mayor is entitled to any opinion he wants. If people think he's not the guy they want representing him, that's their right. Everybody is free to be an asshole. Even Paladin. That's what makes this country great.

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henk

December 4, 2009 1:40 PM

What in the world could be more Christian than a Charlie Brown Christmas! Every time I think of the lord jesus christ I picture him with a very round head, wisps of hair, sucking his thumb and dragging a tattered blanket behind him. Sometimes he's kicking up clouds of dust, but I know that's blasphemy, mixing Charles Schultz characters and all, but still, Obama had the audacity to pre-empt Charlie Brown!

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lousgirl84

December 4, 2009 2:09 PM in reply to henk

ROTFLMAO!!!! That was the best. You just made my day. May I quote you???

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again

December 4, 2009 3:30 PM in reply to henk

I would have thought the "Charlie Brown Christmas Special" would have been far too secular for them...

I mean, there's a lot of "sensitivity" in that animated series. And maybe they think some of the characters are gay. Like, Peppermint Patty and Marcy? and then there are clearly some "mud people" in there, and I don't mean PigPen.

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Cool Blue Reason

December 4, 2009 4:55 PM in reply to again

Yes, but it's been around for so long that one does not think about such potential associations. It's comforting. Traditional. Familiar. Unlike certain scary, quasi-leftist, other-y presidents.

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mikedrevguy

December 5, 2009 1:39 AM in reply to again

But 'A Charlie Brown Christmas' is about as some people come to a real sense of faith - and amazing how shallow it is , at that.

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jenesq

December 4, 2009 1:51 PM

Not seeing a Charlie Brown cartoon in prime time clearly makes Baby Jesus cry.

You know, the South can feel free to secede again any time now, and I personally would tell them not to let the door hit their butts on the way out. I am so sick of people like this, and stats show that the South is chock full of them.

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December 4, 2009 4:41 PM in reply to jenesq

Uh... the dude is an idiot, but stupidity is not a function of geography, and the South certainly doesn't have a monopoly on it. Despite our abundance of pseudo-conservative Jesus freaks, there are some people down here who actually wear shoes and pursue truths.

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midnight rambler

December 4, 2009 6:01 PM in reply to CajunModerate

Certainly not a monopoly on stupidity. But when you're talking about 70% of the population vs. 20% in other places, there's a definite correlation.

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December 5, 2009 5:18 PM in reply to midnight rambler

I've lived here my whole life, including a year in southern Mississippi, and met some of the scariest political extremists you can imagine. I've never met anyone who seriously suggests seceding from the union.

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rwc

December 5, 2009 7:05 PM in reply to CajunModerate

But that's not the point. They might not want to secede, but they are batshit crazy.

More seriously, the difference as I see it, is that there are intellectual and political elites and a larger class of educated people in the Northeast, West Coast and upper Midwest that are progressive, to varying degrees, and are a large enough minority in those parts of the country to influence political discourse. It's not that there isn't a large know-nothing contingent up here (Boston, in my case), it's just that they don't dominate the discourse as they do down South and in the Plains states. And it's not that a small progressive minority doesn't exist down South -- as witnessed by some regular commentators in TPM forums -- it's just that they are too small to regularly influence the political discourse.

Let's face it, really only about 15-20% of the population is really fully politically cognizant. A Boston Globe story today showed that. They interviewed 25 people off the street in downtown Boston and only 6 of them could indentify photos of all 4 Democratic candidates seeking to replace Ted Kennedy in a special election. The primary is Tuesday and their names and faces have been all over the news, both print and broadcast, plus in many, many campaign ads.

Yet, I am confident that whomever wins the primary will be elected the next senator. It's not that I think the majority of voters here are really that progressive. It's that the biggest chuck of those 15-20% of politically cognizant voters here are liberal and they influence enough of the rest of the voting population so that progressives often, if not usually, win here.

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December 5, 2009 8:13 PM in reply to rwc

Conservative doesn't necessarily equal bat-shit crazy any more than liberal or progressive necessarily equals enlightened. I have many friends here who are very conservative but don't buy into the three-ring circus that calls itself the GOP. I don't agree with them on just about anything. But that doesn't mean they're any more or less politically engaged than any other group. And it certainly doesn't mean they're stupid, uneducated or ignorant. More than anything your post epitomizes how the rest of the country and the South still don't really understand each other, at least culturally.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 7:15 PM in reply to CajunModerate

I strongly believe in secession, and I'm a New Yorker. However, I would want to be part of the new confederacy if it happened.

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December 5, 2009 8:16 PM in reply to Paladin

Doesn't count. You don't live in the South.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 11:58 PM in reply to CajunModerate

If you don't think there are people such as me in the South, I have some swampland in Florida to sell you. There are many in the country who are sick and tired of our oppressive, intrusive, interloping, illegal federal government. And it is illegal because it violates the supreme law of the land, the Constitution.

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arias

December 6, 2009 4:33 AM in reply to Paladin

And where were you complaining about the federal government for the last eight years? Your disingenuousness is transparent.

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jenesq

December 6, 2009 10:43 AM in reply to Paladin

Funny, I went to one of the most conservative law schools in the United State (and by that I mean a real school, not Liberty University) and oddly enough, the Constitutional Law profs (also very conservative) did not share your views. You seem to epitomize the saying that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing! But hey, if you want to secede from the US, please feel free to join up with your fellow antigovernment types and head out. Bye!

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December 6, 2009 5:30 PM in reply to jenesq

I think the logic of my "learned" yankee brethren speaks for itself.

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December 7, 2009 4:00 PM in reply to Paladin

I simply pointed out the fact you don't live in the South.

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Freaktank

December 6, 2009 4:34 AM in reply to Paladin

How can you believe in succession and be so big on a fundamentalist view of the constitution at the same time. Its a living document. Its brilliance is that its designed to grow with our society. Thats part of why liberalism wins in the long run.

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Paladin

December 5, 2009 6:10 PM in reply to CajunModerate

Now, if you start pursuing the Truth, you'll be on the right track.

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Andreams

December 4, 2009 7:12 PM in reply to jenesq

No, no, no! I'm southern and was born in Tn. Let's just pack all the wingnuts into Texas and offer refuge to any sane people in that state.

A wingnut commune sounds like a perfect option. It will be a little crowded but that's okay. We'll make sure they don't have health care and natural selection will occur.

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SchrodingersCat

December 4, 2009 7:24 PM in reply to Andreams

No, I'm from Texas and I'd hate to lose the good Mexican food. I vote we stuff them all in to Mississippi.

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Andreams

December 4, 2009 8:10 PM in reply to SchrodingersCat

Don't think Mississippi could hold all of them but we can move all the cooks, too. That way, more of us could enjoy the wonderful food.

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Savilon

December 7, 2009 2:25 PM in reply to Andreams

Take a look at a US map. See where at the Southern border of New Mexico there's a horizontal line that stops when it hits Texas? I say, continue that line STRAIGHT ACROSS until it hits Louisiana. Everything above that line remains part of the USA and is called "New Texas" and everything below that line becomes "The Confederate Union of Old Texas".

With this solution, Americans get to keep their Tex Mex and "The Great Wall of Mexico" can now become a great deal shorter, as now we would only need to protect North Texas from South Texas.

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EastWest

December 4, 2009 7:25 PM in reply to Andreams

Better yet, let the Austin Enclave continue as Texas' liberal homeland. That way Texas can keep its Texans.

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mmg

December 4, 2009 7:32 PM in reply to Andreams

Wait, I'm from Texas...but what the hey, I would move in a heartbeat to get all those right-wingnuts in one place. That would be a distopia, right?

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tiowally

December 4, 2009 1:57 PM

Is that a trombone with a plunger mute I hear?

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CT Voter

December 4, 2009 2:13 PM

You wanna get depressed? Check out the poll results that accompany that story. 51% feel that the mayor was expressing the frustrations that many Americans feel towards Obama. 38% thought the comments were inappropriate.

Wonder which ones? The Muslim comments, or this:

At another point he said, "you know, our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote, if that has stayed in there, things would be different........"

Man's a real piece of work.

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lousgirl84

December 4, 2009 2:24 PM in reply to CT Voter

It is pathetic

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December 4, 2009 2:31 PM in reply to CT Voter

Muslims have high property ownership. Who the fuque is this twat mayor?

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rbe1

December 4, 2009 3:33 PM in reply to CT Voter

The IQ curve is not only not symmetric with respect to the average (100), it has a very long tail toward the lower end. Shades of Darwin, my friends. Hallelujah, now that's intelligent design !

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jeffgee

December 4, 2009 4:14 PM in reply to CT Voter

And people of Obama's color were considered property.
Things WERE different then. Good times fer white folks, as long as they owned property. Otherwise, they didn't matter either.

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jollyroger

December 4, 2009 5:24 PM in reply to jeffgee

Good times

I bet you could sign up a multitude of "Davis"'s, Lee's Carroll's etc. on that score (some of whose anscestors signed the constitution.)
"

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howie

December 4, 2009 2:33 PM

Pigpen is the leper.

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Mondo Gentleman

December 4, 2009 2:47 PM

Trying to make a mountain out of a molehill? What a supreme douche this guy is. He goes beserk over being inconvenienced by an announcement concerning 30K Americans being sent to hell, and is apparently too fucking stupid to realize that the Charlie Brown special isn't lost in the ether until next year, but readily available in any number of formats. Oh, and if longing for the good ol' days when non-whites couldn't vote is a "molehill" to this shit head, what exactly constitutes a mountain; actually lynching a few "obama people?"

I realize it's not very christmassy, but this guy should have his teeth knocked out.

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jeevmon

December 4, 2009 3:18 PM in reply to Mondo Gentleman

In fairness, the property ownership requirement also discriminated against poor whites. The difference is that the GOP panders to and then screws over poor whites, whereas minorities don't even get the pandering.

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rwc

December 5, 2009 7:35 PM in reply to Mondo Gentleman

he's probably missing a few already

Arlington Mayor calls Obama a Muslim on Facebook

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Goshen

December 4, 2009 2:50 PM

There's an online poll, and the option currently winning is "he speaks for a lot of people".

Pay a visit and vote your own opinions. No need to let the bigots have all the fun.

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December 4, 2009 2:59 PM in reply to Goshen

Thanks for linking that. I voted against that bigot.

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UTMark

December 4, 2009 4:14 PM in reply to ilovebacon

Me too. The tide has shifted, and it's 49% - 42% against him now. Although 42% is still pretty embarrassing for Tennessee.

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Lapsed Catholic

December 4, 2009 9:36 PM in reply to UTMark

His temporary majority evaporated once people outside Tennessee started voting.

I say, ignore that poll. Let their support for him stay on the record.

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rbe1

December 4, 2009 3:37 PM in reply to Goshen

Hey, it works. Go to it, folks !

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Capn Chucky

December 4, 2009 4:25 PM in reply to Goshen

It's not a REAL Tennessee poll: you can only vote once.

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the_rob_bot

December 4, 2009 5:59 PM in reply to Goshen

Is that article you linked to a joke or what? It doesn't even debunk the false claim that Obama is a Muslim. Quality reporting.

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jenesq

December 4, 2009 3:04 PM

Why does Wiseman hate the troops? I mean, the President was addressing the very men and women in uniform who are going to be sent overseas to fight a war...and Wiseman thinks the Charlie Brown Christmas Special was more important?

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traitorjoe

December 4, 2009 3:06 PM

51% of everyone in Tennessee are racist idiots, 39% of them are trying to get out and the other 10% are asleep.

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CityGuy

December 4, 2009 3:17 PM in reply to traitorjoe

But Joe, they're all related nonetheless. Btw: The mayor's an asswipe.

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fsudirectory

December 4, 2009 3:12 PM

He'll be re-elected

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eve cairo

December 4, 2009 3:16 PM

Wow. I'm impressed he spelled "mountain" and "molehill" correctly.

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gizmo

December 4, 2009 3:17 PM

Looks to me like Republicans still haven't got the hang of living in the digital age. They keep getting tripped up by mistakes on Facebook and YouTube, and apparently they don't realize that just about every citizen is now armed with a phone that is also a camera and a videocam. They are also getting clobbered when it comes to quantity and quality of blogs. These here intertubes have not been kind to the wingnuts.

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MNPundit

December 4, 2009 3:21 PM

The interesting thing is the poll in The Commercial Appeal that shows that 52% of respondents (when I checked) agree ath the Mayor "speaks for a lot of Americans"

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Prof Wagstaff

December 4, 2009 3:22 PM

Just another typical Republican.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/dec/04/mayor-fires-at-obama-online/

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eve cairo

December 4, 2009 3:23 PM

Go vote

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December 4, 2009 3:28 PM in reply to eve cairo

almost tied

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biglith

December 4, 2009 3:26 PM

I'm sure there a couple of good people in Tennessee but basically it's full of a-holes.

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jeaton

December 4, 2009 3:27 PM

Jesus just called. Says try Netflix, you idiot!

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December 4, 2009 3:30 PM in reply to jeaton

Hahahah

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napapjd

December 4, 2009 3:28 PM

Charles Schultz, circa 1980s:
"I do not go to church anymore... I guess you might say I've come around to secular humanism, an obligation I believe all humans have to others and the world we live in."

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again

December 4, 2009 3:33 PM in reply to napapjd

exactly - that secular humanism is all over the Christmas special (and why I always liked it.)

I was actually surprised a guy like this would watch something so "sensitive."

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TIMMY

December 4, 2009 3:55 PM in reply to again

Spirituality is not ruining the world - organized religion is.
This racist wants to know if Jesus is the son of God.
He out to ask...do racists go to heaven?

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WaitWut?

December 4, 2009 3:28 PM

What an ass. If it were anywhere but Tennessee I'd start a petition to have him tarred and feathered. But, they'll erect a friggin monument to the dbag.

Yeah, you moronic, backwoods Klan member...Charlie Brown is more important than the men and women putting their lives on the line to protect your right to free speech.

Each day I become more and more amazed at the idiocy of the right. I just hope that the majority of citizens in Arlington are embarrassed enough to get rid of him.

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rbe1

December 4, 2009 3:39 PM in reply to WaitWut?

In Tennessee they tar and feather themselves whenever they have to portray a black person on stage.

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Plan 9 Studios

December 4, 2009 3:29 PM

I say no voting rights for renters or slaves! Because unlike being a Protestant, those are CHOICES!

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December 4, 2009 3:31 PM

Yes, vote: http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2009/dec/04/mayor-fires-at-obama-online/

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Schmed

December 4, 2009 3:44 PM in reply to ilovebacon

At 15:34:

His comments are inappropriate and embarrassing. 47%
Mayor Wiseman speaks for a lot of Americans who are frustrated with the President. 44%
I don’t agree with him, but he can say what he wants on his Facebook page. 8%

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Freaktank

December 6, 2009 4:32 AM in reply to Schmed

I have to admit I personally feel his comments are inappropriate and embarrassing but that he does have the right to say what he pleases on his facebook page. Clearly that is the beauty of being an American. Also if he didn't have that right those of use in our rational right (and i mean correct not wingnut reactionary) minds would have no idea just how crazy the right (here I mean wingnuts) really are.

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sirclown

December 4, 2009 3:34 PM

"if that has stayed in there, things would be different" ?

Is that his subtle way of asking for more federal funding for education in Tennessee?

Whatever our creed, we can come together and agree it is sacrilege to take away the Snoopy that God intended for us to enjoy.

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Dc Fem

December 4, 2009 3:42 PM

The next GOP convention really, really needs to start with a course called Online Technologies 101. Are they really this stupid? Is anyone really such a bottom feeder that he doesn't realize that a) no one has 1,600 friends which means b) there is someone among your facebook readers who will sell you out. Take a moment, take a deep breath, use the teeny tiny space left in your brain that is not occupied by your mistress, bashing gay people and other minorities, and wishing something awful would happen to the president before you hit "send"

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Capn Chucky

December 4, 2009 4:36 PM in reply to Dc Fem

Why in the world would we want these clods to make effective use of the intertubes? If they offer this seminar, let's hope Wiseman and Hoekstra joint-teach it.

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rbe1

December 4, 2009 3:44 PM

Maybe we could hire the Israelis to build a wall of separation around the south and be done with it. Anyone remaining there would be someone not sufficiently embarrassed at or aware of being a member of the select population of units manufactured via Intelligent Design.

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MarinCat

December 4, 2009 3:45 PM

Wow! Tennessee is sure seems on a roll?Err.. make that rollback.

Every time I see politics and TN together in the
news, it's like some kinda Klan meets a Wallace/Nixon/Reagan rally on the set of Birth of a Nation. It all seems so.....so 19th century. There is a better way TN. Come over to the light.

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new10

December 4, 2009 3:46 PM

Buy the DVD and watch that with your kids - moron.

I know, his outburst wasn't about missing Chralie Brown. CB was just an excuse to express his bigoted hatreds. Actually, it's kind of fun watching bigots destroy their reputations and careers as their heads (and mouths) explode at Obama's mere existance - heh, heh. Now, where I'd sit my popcorn.

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Ian

December 4, 2009 3:53 PM

Another reason for Facebook to add the "Dislike" button

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twayn

December 4, 2009 3:59 PM

Why do people believe President Obama's religious affiliation is a matter of opinion? It's a matter of record, dammit. It's an established fact. He's a Christian. Next thing you know, they'll be claiming that he really was born in Africa, or that he's a Fascist Socialist Communist Terrorist. I can excuse a lot of things, but not deliberate ignorance.

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Matt Jones

December 4, 2009 5:53 PM in reply to twayn

You say "claiming" like there aren't currently people who are, in fact, saying that. Ever heard of Orly Taitz?

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Kenneth Thomas

December 4, 2009 3:59 PM

FYI, Arlington is a small town just east of Memphis in Shelby County. I am guessing it shares the white flight that has been moving eastward out of Memphis to eastern Shelby County and Fayette County. Its population has jumped dramatically since the 2000 Census, according to Wikipedia.

I grew up in Memphis; back then, Arlington was tiny and made no news I ever heard about. This is really embarrassing.

Thanks for the poll link; good guys had taken a slim lead when I voted.

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Jormungand

December 4, 2009 4:03 PM

He must have been drunk, or he just doesn't understand the internet.

It's a given that he's a moron.

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Avalon Lady

December 4, 2009 4:05 PM

TN Mayor will lift his eyes in hell for being full of hate and jealousy. What kind of Christian is he? He makes God look bad.

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rbe1

December 4, 2009 6:13 PM in reply to Avalon Lady

Why do you think he is such an unusual Christian ? Have you ever heard of the Crusades ? It took a hell of a lot of Christians to launch the Crusades. My guess is that the USA today is crawling with enough bigots who call themselves Christians to launch a pretty good size crusade in the 21st century, and a big damn bunch of them live in the south, a place I sincerely wish we could have given away instead of having the civil war.

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benintn

December 4, 2009 4:10 PM

What's really disgusting is the way the wingnuts are busy high-fiving each other over the publicity - like they're proud of being ignorant redneck good ol' boy bigots.

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rbeats

December 4, 2009 4:21 PM in reply to benintn

But they are proud.

That is the whole point.

Think about it.

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Avalon Lady

December 4, 2009 4:10 PM

It is hard for some people to associate President Obama's blacknes with his intellience. I don't care how you cut it, the President is a brilliant black man. This is why even Sarah Palin ca't accept it.

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toxophilite

December 4, 2009 4:23 PM in reply to Avalon Lady

Sarah? Sarah's so dumb she wouldn't recognize brilliance in anyone under any circumstances. She probably thinks brilliant is a particularly rousing sermon (maybe on witches?).

I gotta say that I'm really unsure on this whole Afghanistan thing, and it's only my trust in Obama's mental acumen that gives me any hope at all that this will work. Let's hear it for innate brain power and the training to put it to good use!

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byrthfood

December 4, 2009 4:19 PM

Russ publicly posts his email address on his profile page:
http://www.townofarlington.org/directory.aspx?EID=18

russwise@aol.com

I think he's inviting public response.

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/area_man_passionate_defender_of

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Peter Principle

December 4, 2009 4:26 PM

you know, our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote

Another character from an Onion story, come to life.

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Stroszek

December 4, 2009 4:39 PM in reply to Peter Principle

Dude, it's in the original Constitution.

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slb

December 4, 2009 4:40 PM

Jesus, the Charlie Brown Christmas special is more than 40 years old and it's available on home video. What is wrong with this guy that pre-empting a 45-year-old cartoon for a critical policy announcement from the President which is, literally a life-and-death matter for thousands of people makes him pitch such a tantrum?

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jeffgee

December 4, 2009 7:12 PM in reply to slb

Whining about a pre-empted TV show. Toddler behavior. It's a common trait among today's GOP. When they don't get their way, they lie down on the floor, kick their legs and throw a tantrum.

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Avalon Lady

December 4, 2009 4:54 PM

As small as it is this is good news and a ray of Hope.

President Obama on Friday praised the latest jobs figures that show a drop in the U.S. unemployment rate from 10.2 percent to 10 percent in November.

"I want to do something I haven't had a chance to do that often during my first year in office, and that is to share some modestly encouraging news on our economy," he told a crowd composed largely of students from Lehigh Carbon Community College.

Noting that the latest jobs report is the country's best since December 2007 -- which economists say marked the start of the recession -- the president added, "This is good news, just in time for the season of hope."

But he added that "we still have a long way to go" and that one job lost is "one job too many."

"The journey from here will not be without setbacks or struggles," the president said. "But the direction is clear. When you think about how this year began, today's report is a welcome sign that there are better days ahead."
Just watch how The President's haters will criticise him because of a ray of hope.

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Kuyleh

December 4, 2009 5:06 PM

I would expect this kind of outrage from the follower of a religion that claims a zombie is the son of their god.

The president addressing the nation on something as big as sending more troops to a war that said country doesn't support is more important than a movie you could likely buy at any video store. Take a Midol and go back to running your city.

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Cal Damage

December 4, 2009 7:00 PM in reply to Kuyleh

From the folks who brought you "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" comes
"The King James Zombie"
Starring Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and The Zombie

"He doesn't follow them, they follow Him"
"They eat HIS flesh, they drink HIS blood!"

"mmm---pass the Zombie, please."

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December 4, 2009 8:30 PM in reply to Cal Damage

Jesus was a liberal--hung out with homeless, mentally ill, prostitutes, the disabled.

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again

December 4, 2009 7:07 PM in reply to Kuyleh

It's not just Christians - there is plenty of zombie-ism and other dysfunction in all religion.

I prefer the ancient Greek and Roman gods - I think when you moved from gods to a singular God, you lost a lot of nuance. Then again, there are some polytheistic countries that are pretty messed up, and the Greeks and Romans weren't exactly perfect. (understatement, but those Athenian dramatists were way ahead of their time.)

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tpr

December 4, 2009 5:39 PM

I'm trying to resist painting all Republican politicians with the same racist brush, but they're making it pretty difficult.

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Nancy Irving

December 4, 2009 5:47 PM

"...our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote..."

Does that appear in the Constitution? I searched but could not find it.

I think that each state determines requirements for voter eligibility. I don't know how long property requirements lasted, or how they were outlawed.

Anyone?

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musgrove

December 4, 2009 9:53 PM in reply to Nancy Irving

Well, race was 1870. Amendment 15.
Women got to vote in 1920. Amendment 19.
But many states in the south still made it hard for the poor or minorities to vote, which is why the 24 amendment came around to block poll taxes in 1964.

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Mr. Conspiracy

December 4, 2009 5:47 PM

Ah, Arlington, home of every white Shelby Countian who couldn't stand the ghettoization of Germantown.

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bowtiejack

December 4, 2009 5:51 PM

"Wiseman's official website announces that, "The Wisemans are active members of Sycamore View Church of Christ in Memphis.""

I know we have to pretend to neutrality or not speaking the truth or something. But I grew up in the South and those Church of Christers tend to be a mean bunch. I've always wondered why that was.

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out of the loop

December 4, 2009 5:56 PM

"you know, our forefathers had it written in the original Constitution that ONLY property owners could vote, if that has stayed in there, things would be different..."

Although it was only in 1824 that the vote was extended to those not holding property, there never has been anything in the Constitution that specifically relates to this issue at all. It was not written in the original Constitution. It was only in the mind set, but not a Constitutional issue at all.

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JoeyJay

December 4, 2009 7:39 PM

I agree with the above post. There was nothing in the original Constitution about property qualifications for voting. It was left up to the states. Vermont, for example, had universal white male suffrage during the Revolutionary War. Louisiana, Virginia and Rhode Island retained property qualifications even beyond 1824.

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charlie8080

December 4, 2009 7:45 PM

I feel sorry for the city of Arlington. Could you possibly have elected a worse example of a narrow-minded racist to represent your city?

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seahawk

December 4, 2009 8:44 PM

If a wingnut thinks or feels something, he is certain that it's in the Constitution.

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ryansmash

December 4, 2009 9:16 PM

Worst thing the Left said about Bush, He's a fascist (Obama already recieving this in his first term)
Hes' an idiot (depends on ur opinion but is more realistic than Obama is a muslim which has no basis at all)
He's doesn't like black people (not true but the right seems certain that Obama hates white people eg Beck n co)

The right has already surpassed the Left in terms of pissing and moaning and comments by this douchebag only reiterate that.

Right wingers should take a hint and realize the partisan snipes and constant whining by the left got Bush re-elected and it will be the same for Obama

point being made the left thinks a guy is in idiot president and the right thinks hes a muslim president thats all you need to know about our current state of affairs

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Lapsed Catholic

December 4, 2009 9:32 PM

Does anyone know where we can find a copy of the full text of his comment? I'm sure if we could read it in context we would see how reasonable it really was. One of his 1600 friends could exonerate him here.

It isn't so far fetched that a secretly-Muslim president would schedule a carefully-timed speech about an unimportant war just to knock Charlie Brown and the Baby Jesus off the central time TV schedule and brainwash this poor mayor's kids with his Afghanistan strategy.

I'm searching all over the Internet but I can only find these few excerpts. Doesn't this guy have any real friends? He obviously has a bright political career ahead of him in Tennessee.

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December 4, 2009 9:42 PM

Mayor Wiseass should go cry in his security blanket.

December 4, 2009 11:24 PM

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Number6

It's not on TPM yet, but speaking of bat-guano insane wingnuts, this is an appropriate place to put it. Raw Story and several other sources report that Trainn Wreck's "movie," The Christmas Sweater, sold less than 20 tickets in both NY and Boston on its premiere night. 30 in DC. In smaller more conservative areas, theaters are about half filled. Goodonya Glenda!

I'll place a wager that PHOCKS will use some ahem, "found footage" to make Glenda's holiday gobbler look as popular as Star Wars :D

December 4, 2009 11:43 PM

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mickey finn

These people are not changeable. Their insanity is too ingrained. And, to those commenting on Texas: they don't serve Mexican food there. It's called Tex-Mex, a bastardized version of what would otherwise be very healthy food. They eat flour lard pancakes that they call tortillas. They use cheese as a main course. Like Takout Bell. Not Mexican.

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SchrodingersCat

December 5, 2009 9:34 AM in reply to mickey finn

Whatever. My abuelita, who never spoke a word of English in her life, is probably spinning in her grave knowing that she spent her life making "flour lard pancakes" and "Takout Bell".

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Verified

December 5, 2009 2:14 AM

Decades after MLK was assassinated there, Memphis (with its white suburbs) is still one of the most racist cities in the US, with marked class separation, as well. The church's website has a smiling heterosexual African American family on its banner. Looks canned but who knows - they may belong. If so, wonder how they feel about their fellow member's true feelings.

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Eager Reader

December 5, 2009 3:43 AM

Here is the mayor's email address: russwise@aol.com
And his fellow Aldermen: bigo3966@hotmail.com; blt975@comcast.net; harrymckee@bellsouth.net; glen@bascomrealty.com; hlamar@bellsouth.net; ntqman@yahoo.com

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December 5, 2009 4:10 PM in reply to Eager Reader

Sign him up to daily Qur'an reading emails.

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OhioMan

December 5, 2009 6:27 AM

Jeez, not *another* right-wing religious idiotic jerk. Obama is a Muslim (obviously a terrible, terrible accusation to make of anyone) because he gave an important speech and prevented little Russie Wiseman from watching his cartoons. Right.

Good God. When will the idiocy end?

December 5, 2009 10:52 AM

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jenesq

An older relative of mine saw an article about this and told me that she was sure it was a joke. I hated to burst her bubble of hope and tell her that no, this d-bag actually meant it.

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Popkarma

December 5, 2009 4:11 PM

this is why it makes me cringe to hear someone let their faith or religion drive them to think without reasoning, simply by making these statements he is just as "bad" as the "muslims". Psycho brainwashed radical muslims vs psycho brainwashed radical christians. Why should the rest of us sit around and let these two groups fight each other and affect us in the process?

December 5, 2009 10:20 PM

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lindam

Might be interesting if only property owners were able to vote. Some of our biggest cities are owned by non-Americans. Somewhere I read that the majority of the Dakotas are owned by folks from the Middle East.

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December 6, 2009 12:29 AM

I'm disturbed by the growing volume of Muslim bashing by Republicans. (Look at any comments section below an article mentioning Obama.) They hush with the anti-black vitriol, but apparently feel no shame in their Islamophobia. Part of the reason is that we on the left haven't been calling them on it. If we don't start, the confidence for them to act on that bigotry will only grow.

December 6, 2009 12:05 PM

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sabocat

The islamaphobic trend is most assuredly a subtext for racism. I've heard it plenty from folks around here in north georgia, having recently moved to the area. The problem is there are also many islamaphobes among the secular intelligentsia, the so-called new atheists represented by folks such as Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. These people are arguably more dangerous than the warmed over LaRouchites and the rest of the pseudo-christian, white supremacist right wing. One thing is for sure,both groups need to be called on their bigotry.

December 7, 2009 11:23 AM

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sh1

Hmm...small town in the deep south? How come that doesn't surprise me. As I'm not white, I shudder at the thought of mistakenly driving through his town. I can just imagine the sheriff.

As for the "ONLY property owners could vote", I assume that means owning land, so a mobile home wouldn't count.

We should also factor in property value into that....twice the value means twice the voting power. Probably wouldn't make the small town fanatics too happy.

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notawingnut

December 7, 2009 1:23 PM

OK, I have to weigh in on this. I am a resident of Arlington, TN and know Mayor Wiseman and his family. My family has lived in Arlington for 3 years and the Memphis area for almost 10 years. I am from the northern Midwest and my husband is from Southern California. I don't agree at all with what Mr. Wiseman posted on his facebook page. I think it is ignorant and maybe a bit paranoid. I think it's silly to believe that Pres. Obama or his staff deliberately chose to make his address on the Afghanistan escalation during the Charlie Brown Christmas special. I am a Christian, and I like that a show like that would be aired today in our increasingly secular TV space. I don't believe that Mr. Wiseman was particularly angry that his own children didn't get to see it as I'm sure they are very aware of the true meaning of Christmas as they are members of the very conservative Church of Christ denomination. What I believe he was upset about was that others who do not have any faith or have never heard the Christmas story would not get the opportunity to see it since it was preempted by the President's speech. I think Christians look at the cartoon special as an evangelical tool to a certain extent although it's pretty simplistic to believe it would really have much impact in that way. I guess it's just good to see that the Christian perspective is shown on a TV show when that seems to be taboo in today's society.

But, I do believe his remarks did strongly imply a bias against Muslims and against the voters that he perceives won Mr. Obama the presidency. I don't think you can take his comment about only landowners being allowed to vote as anything but racist.

However, I strongly disagree with the mob mentality that rose up in these posts regarding the South and Tennessee. Everyone who slammed the South and its citizens are guilty of the same type of behavior that Mr. Wiseman showed. You are putting all Southerners (or those now living in the South like myself) into a group where you are saying we are all bigots and stupid. Many of you also insulted all Christians by your comments. I am deeply offended by all of this. Yes, there probably is a higher percentage of racists and ignorant people in the South than in the North, but that certainly is not even close to the majority of people. Most people are giving and friendly and loving here in the South. I am from the North and I know a lot of bigoted people there too - even in my own family I'm sorry to say. And I agree that there have been many atrocities committed by Christians in history (the Crusades and Spanish Inquisition). I am ashamed that those things happened. And I know that some Christians still manage to give the religion a bad rap because of their actions today. But, that is not all Christians. We are taught that the most important commandment is to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. That is the way that most Christians live our lives. We are not perfect, but we are trying to love and help our fellow citizen in this world. So, stop your bashing of the South and Christians just because one person from a small town in TN said some stupid things. I am very proud to be a citizen of Arlington, Tennessee. I am proud to live in the South. I am proud to be a Christian and worship Jesus Christ. I hope everyone here can try to have a little less bias and knee-jerk reaction to this topic. Don't paint a whole region or religion with a broad brush -it only makes you look as bad as Mr. Wiseman.

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mutt

December 7, 2009 4:39 PM

Ok, Ok, he's not a racist. He's a moron.

December 8, 2009 12:18 PM

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dudeguy

I believe the operative word is "bigot."

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Tosh

March 11, 2010 4:50 PM

wow some people just dont want him in office
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jibran_pcc

July 25, 2010 3:58 AM

One problem with the guy's whole argument on voting is that the "original" Constitution never said anything about a property requirement to vote. That was something states did, and starting just a few years after the constitution was ratified, led by that conservative bastion of New Hampshire, states started dropping that requirement. morris
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