AZ Gov Signs Immigration Bill

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mophan

April 23, 2010 4:48 PM in reply to mophan

Not just in AZ, but the whole country since a significant portion of the population sees nothing wrong whatsoever with this bill.

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ed lehner

April 23, 2010 5:05 PM in reply to mophan

Yeah, a lot of "white" folks out there see nothing wrong here. Come on. No matter what this woman says, it is racist and undermines the basic freedoms of everyone.... another step down the slippery slope to fascism when we all have to carry "papers".

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John M

April 23, 2010 5:41 PM in reply to ed lehner

There could be a whole city full of Canadian illegal immigrants and 50 American citizens of Mexican descent. The Canadian illegal immigrants will never be stopped because they're white and "American looking" but the 50 American citizens of Mexican descent will be constantly stopped and harrassed. Arizona must have lots of money to spare, since they will be paying awards for thousands of human rights complaints because of this discriminatory law.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 8:29 PM in reply to John M

Shhhhhh. You're like, giving us away, eh.

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April 23, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to ed lehner

That's not true. Unauthorized entry has become a huge problem along the border. There are murders. Drug transfers and other crimes that are compounding the un-checked movement into our country.

We have to take measures to control unauthorized entry. It's not racist to establish control. I think it's racist for non-Americans to simply walk into our country! If I walk into Mexico unauthorized, my ass would be in jail. So don't use the "race" card. What part of Illegal Immigrant don't you understand?

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bvd

April 23, 2010 5:55 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

What a ridiculous comment. If you're really from New York you must be from Staten Island.

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April 23, 2010 5:58 PM in reply to bvd

And you must be an illegal alien!

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bvd

April 23, 2010 6:01 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Yes, anyone who isn't from Staten Island must be an illegal.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 7:58 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Uh oh.

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 10:47 PM in reply to bvd

Now that is one helluva observation!!! Lol.......

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dtOZONE

April 24, 2010 12:32 AM in reply to bvd

Or Queens or Long Island or Southern Brooklyn or the Upper East Side of Manhattan

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BillMcD

April 24, 2010 1:00 AM in reply to dtOZONE

Hey now! I'm from Lawn Guylant, don't lump that goober in w/us! Dude is obviously either Staten Island, Yonkers, or upstate.

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dudeguy

April 23, 2010 5:58 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

"racist for Non-Americans"

Aaaaaaaaand that's why your opinions are offensive.

Being American isn't a race. Get over it.

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April 23, 2010 6:11 PM in reply to dudeguy

I didn't say Americans are a race. Americans are a diverse group. Please don't be ignorant.

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EH

April 23, 2010 6:38 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

But the question is, is our Americans learning?

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April 23, 2010 6:45 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You appear to be missing the point. Let's take two people, one we'll call Rosa and the other we'll call Rosie:

Now, Rosie has green eyes, red hair, and has overstayed her visa.

Rosa was born in California, as was her mother, as was her mother's mother, as was her mother before her.

Both of them are walking down the street in Arizona. Which one do you think is MORE likely to be stopped and asked for her papers?

Be *honest* about that. If you think that Rosie is more likely to be stopped, explain why.

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April 23, 2010 6:50 PM in reply to ladyfractal

The bill does not say "walking" is a reasonable suspicion. Nor does it say only "latinos" will be stopped. You are taking this personally. You sound like another sympathetic pro-illegal immigration wacko.

If you agree with illegal immigration, why don't you open your doors and become a "safe-house"?

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April 23, 2010 6:53 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

My understanding of the law--correct me if I'm wrong--is that the police can stop anyone they have a reasonable suspicion of being illegally in the country. It does not say that they can ONLY ask if they pulled you over for a traffic violation. My understanding of the law is that they can stop you on a bicycle. They can stop you if you are walking down the street. They can stop *anyone* they believe is in the country illegally. So how do you tell by looking at someone if they are in the country illegally?

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April 23, 2010 7:16 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Btw. sir, I'm not taking it personally. However, I AM non-white and this bill seems to target non-whites (btw. despite my being non-white I am a citizen of the United States and my bloodline has been here since *at least* 1809 so every single person I am related to for the at least the last 200 years has been an American (although we were not considered citizens until the 14th Amendment was passed) )

I HAVE, however, had police pull a weapon on me because I was 'in the wrong neighborhood' even though I had lived in that house 15 years at that point and it was only the *second* house I had ever lived in at that point. I have been stopped for being in the wrong neighborhood getting out of my car after a late night at work. I have literally had police stop me as I got out of my car, in my own driveway, and ask me to produce identification proving that I lived in the house I was about to enter. I have had this happen when I was wearing a nice (Brooks' Brothers) pantsuit and driving a nice (Audi A4) car. Why? Because the neighborhood I live in is predominately white and I am black.

So I am not quite as sanguine that this *isn't* about the color of skin as you are.

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expat46

April 23, 2010 7:35 PM in reply to ladyfractal

He doesn't get it ladyfractul. NewYork1 is incapable of the self reflection required to recognize his own racism and xenophobia. He's incapable of empathizing with your experiences, he has too much invested in his own hate.

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April 23, 2010 7:46 PM in reply to expat46

You sound like a racist anti-White bigot! By the way I'm latino.

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expat46

April 23, 2010 8:06 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Now your Latino again. You had better go read from the top of the thread. We can't take you at your word, you've been exposed as a LIAR.

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April 23, 2010 8:14 PM in reply to expat46

Excuse me. My mother was Latino. My father was Turkish. Up yours.

You just don't like someone who makes sense.

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expat46

April 23, 2010 8:19 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Then why do you support profiling of Latino's? Where does all your hate come from? How would you feel if you had been in ladyfractul's place?

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 11:00 PM in reply to expat46

Sounds a bit like Grigory Pechorin. Can't get his Degrees straight or his education. These fucking people are beyond the pale.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 8:07 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

And Hitler had Jewish soldiers. What's your point?

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 8:24 PM in reply to expat46

Let's say there are three guys: One is named Rob, one is named Rush, and the other is named Tom Tancredo. Besides the most obvious differences, like income levels ...

Note that at this point NewYorkRob has become latino, thereby justifying his rampant xenophobia. Although he's never been to Arizona, specifically the greater Phoenix area, I now look forward to hearing about his many Kodak-moment experiences with Sheriff Joe Arpayaso*'s Maricopa County brown-shirts.

*Not a misspelling; payaso is Spanish for clown.

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addicted

April 25, 2010 4:16 AM in reply to expat46

Krugman once said it best.

Most Republicans are like little children who lack the ability to empathize. They are incapable of thinking what someone else who are not exactly like them is thinking, or experiencing.

Whether they are white/black/latino, etc., as long as they have never experienced a negative situation in a particular instance, they cannot believe it can be a problem for anybody.

The prototypical example of this is Dick Cheney. Pure Republican in every way but one. Gay Rights. He supports gay rights. The only reason for this is because he has personally experienced the negatives of this situation, since his daughter is gay.

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new10

April 25, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to addicted

Yes, except that they are adults not children, and so their behavior is sociopathic.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 6:45 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You control unauthorized entry at the border. And the feds do it, not state governments. Giving the police carte blanche to demand that anyone on the street produce their "credentials" is so reminiscent of South African Apartheid.

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amber

April 23, 2010 6:52 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

New Yorkl,

You must be from Dede Scozzafavaland, New York. As a Hispanic, I'm with the idea of keeping out illegals as is much of my family, but we're all against this crazy, racist law in Arizona. It legalizes (in that state) racial profiling. If having Joe Arpaio running around breaking the law with impunity and the freakshow Minutemen murdering people wasn't enough, this is really over the top.

I don't know whether to go to Arizona to instigate a lawsuit when my family or I are racially profiled by overzealous cops or to boycott it.

As much as I love the Grand Canyon, Tucson and Lake Havasu, I'm opting for boycotting Arizona, and I hope everyone else will boycott it too. I am looking forward to the first lawsuits to crush this racist law. I dread the humiliation that brown-skinned Americans will suffer when they are forced to produce papers.

Republicans are trying to take the country back to a time when they could openly discriminate. Despite their sick attempts, it's doing nothing to win them the Hispanic vote. Like African-Americans, they've lost us for a generation.

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April 23, 2010 7:13 PM in reply to amber

Ha! Guess what Amber! I'm hispanic too! And my parents came here legally! And we all support this law. Why should we have to finance services for anyone who is not a lawful American?

This is not a racist law. You assume it automatically applies to "brown-skinned Americans". The bill doesn't state "brown-skinned Americans," it says "illegal immigrants." Besides if one is American I assume one is a citizen no?

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Dalinker

April 23, 2010 7:38 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Well, we all know the day New York will regret his statements here today...the day he visit AZ and gets pulled over and asked to show his papers.

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April 23, 2010 7:47 PM in reply to Dalinker

doubtful. this paid troll who goes by the name "New York" is not Hispanic. Anyone can claim to be any race, creed or color they wish on the Internet. It is a classic troll defense. I'm "xxxxx", too, but I hate "xxxxx's."

Obviously this is an odious law. But there is a clear silver lining in the larger picture. The GOP has relinquished nearly every Latino vote by backing such a law. And they will pay a heavy price at the polls for this one.

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April 23, 2010 7:51 PM in reply to magurakurin

Excuse me. But my response was to Amber who stated she was "Hispanic"... you dipshit.

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April 23, 2010 7:54 PM in reply to Dalinker

And guess what? I have the papers to show him! I was born here. Your remark is asinine.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 9:01 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

But the point is that you shouldn't have to identify your citizenship based on the color of your skin, cabeza de mierda.

Un hombre que vive, no por lo que ama, pero lo que odia, es un hombre enfermo.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 8:35 PM in reply to Dalinker

Ah, the Kodak moments he'll have. Memories he can cherish a lifetime.

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expat46

April 23, 2010 7:39 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

So for you, this is all about keeping people from getting free stuff?

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April 23, 2010 7:52 PM in reply to expat46

Isn't that pretty much what every wingnut stance boils down to?

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amber

April 23, 2010 10:22 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I'm a 4th generation Mexican-American and I'm dark-skinned-a native Californian. All of my ancestors and family are legal. This law which tries to make itself about illegal immigrants is a racial profiling law. The likeliness of me or any of my family getting asked for our "papers" is much higher than your standard white person like my husband who refers to himself as white having a wide mix of European blood.

Yeah Marco Rubio is a Hispanic too, but I'd bet if one of his relatives and one of mine were pulled over, mine would be profiled and harassed. It doesn't matter what that law says by the way. When people think of illegal immigrants, they think of Mexicans. It's dishonest to say pretend anything else. I'm sure behind closed doors all those racist lawmakers who passed this law refer to us as wet backs.

Still, Mexican=American political power is growing and growing with our population numbers. We'll definitely have the last laugh.

And by the way, all this name calling and insulting is so vile and ugly.

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John M

April 26, 2010 4:29 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

Führer Brewer will have to handle all the protests in front of the Arizona Reichstag. She has probably ordered brown shirts for all police in Arizona.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 8:30 PM in reply to amber

That's right! Fucking Joe Arpaio is going to be in charge of enforcing this law. No chance it could ever be administered in a "racially neutral" manner with that crackah in charge. Even with him, there is no chance.

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VictorShaw

April 24, 2010 9:54 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

You are disconnected from what it means to tell cops to shake down brown people when they 'suspect' a person is an illegal. Step out of your ethnocentric haze for a minute. You've obviously never been harassed by cops because you were driving while brown/black etc. We brown citizens will not put up with this bullying. Y'all can take that to the bank. ;)

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SilvestriWoman

April 24, 2010 1:51 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

A top source for drug cartel firepower is US gun shows. Thanks to the NRA's success is blocking basically any gun regulation, cartels easily arm themselves north of the border. Thing is, something tells me the cops won't be raiding gun shows.

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TheRealFish

April 24, 2010 2:59 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

BTW: This law will have zero positive effect against the drug traffic and associated crimes. So long as peddling pot and similar substances remains an illegal activity, and the demand (the majority of which is made by middle class white people) for those substances continues, these related crimes will continue. The two issues, that of people coming to this country for wages and satisfying the mainly middle class demand for drugs are completely separate issues.

All this law does is allow police to assume you are guilty of being here illegally until you can prove yourself innocent.

A law that corrects this problem would 1) legalize pot and other drugs that are provably less dangerous than already-legal drugs like alcohol (you kill the criminal activity by killing the crime — just as we did by ending alcohol prohibition) and 2) make the obtaining of work visas to become more lenient.

That last one is not "amnesty." It acknowledges that there is work here for these aliens; if there weren't they would not be coming here and doing those jobs. It also converts them from criminals and turns them into tax payers — which helps reduce the bleeding deficit everyone is terribly concerned about (just so long as that deficit has nothing to do with building anti-underpants-bomb missile systems and al Qaeda hunting submarines, of course; if it's military, it's majicks budgetary stuff and spending on that can't be reduced, Right?).

I'm just saying there are pathways to solving these twin problems that have nothing to do with racist profiling, 4th Amendment shredding, and actually address the actual underlying problems as though being dealt with by un-fear-filled adults.

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marlow

April 24, 2010 12:46 AM in reply to ed lehner

on the slippery slope...we all fell down the fascist rabbit hole when the supreme Court staged a coup and installed a junta...in 2000

which leads to this situation...of course this law is racist...of course it's authoritarian...and what the trolls here either ignore or do not understand is that the legal system (such as it is) is based on precedent...once you give the police the power to stop people on the basis of looking one way or ten, you give them the right to stop people for any number of reasons...

and since the police are generally overstressed, overworked, underpaid, and prone to violence, corruption, malaise and stupidity, we can all sit back and wait for some hideous act of brutality and the ensuing riots...which will give the fascists exactly what they want...

Once you have a fully politicized supreme court that stops the recount and then declares the recount can't work because there is not enough time for it to accomplish its goals you have entered into 1984...up is down and left is right; war is peace and...dark skinned people can be stopped by the cops...

and then they will have to be detained...and investigated...

and then the next group will be targeted...

which is what the fascists want...

and Obama's fear of being labeled as a radical is not going to keep the rest of us safe...

If this and all the rest of the Brown Shirt terror tactics of the fascist wing of the GOP are not confronted then you can forget comparing Obama to a one term failure like Carter or a "tragic" Shakespearean fraud like LBJ...and instead learn to see him as a Kerensky...or a post modern Woodrow Wilson...

This country is tearing itself apart...this is how fascism wins...

So it goes...

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mophan

April 24, 2010 12:49 AM in reply to marlow

Glad to see you again. Very insightful.

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marlow

April 24, 2010 1:15 AM in reply to mophan

But wouldn't it be so much more pleasant to be discussing some happy piece of news rather than what I swear sounds like the drum roll before something awful...

this law reeks of how you build an Apartheid system...is illeagal immigration a serious problem; yes...and so the best solution the fascists and their enablers can come up with is some half-assed unworkable lawsuit-prone piece of inflammatory jingoistic flim-flam that is going to blow up in everyone's face...and reveals the shallowness and corruption of our corporate foreign policy because for over a century we have been using Central and South America as colonies...and now comes the blow back...

is Obama going to say clearly and unambiguously that our foreign policy has been a disaster south of the Rio Grande...is he going to say we have supported colonialism, fascism, and genocide through a series of ruthless juntas, coups, and corporate raids...is he going to say that support for any regime that denies freedom of expression, and the right to a descent wage is no friend of America...and that this brutal support for thugs has forced generations of people to try and flee North...

of course not...

because you could name on two hands the number of countries we support who aren't gangsterocracies and then once you start telling the truth about Operation Condor, United Fruit,and all the rest you'd have to start telling the truth about all the other thugs we do business with...

It was FDR who said, when asked about a gangster we were supporting: Yes, he's an SOB, but he's our SOB...

ha ha ha...

some lynch mob foaming at the mouth cyber thug further down the thread is chomping at his keyboard ranting about America love it or leave it and how it's our land...

right...we didn't steal it from the Mexicans...who didn't steal it from the Spanish...who didn't steal it from the Indians...

can someone please stop the planet; I want to get off...and hide...

which never works...

So it goes...

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SamFox

April 24, 2010 4:53 AM in reply to ed lehner

The issue is ILLEGAL immigration. Who does the most of the ILLEGAL entry into the USA?

I don't think there are many who would offer amnesty to a person or persons who entered their home illegally, IE, broke in. They would first have to cross your personal borders, your property lines.

If the Fed govt would enforce US immigration law AZ would not be forced to act. We do not need reform. We need enforcement. I do believe it is true that the prog libs want amnesty so they can capture & manipulate a block of voters. Manipulate? Who opposes English only? If the voting block only knows one language & it not English, they are easily propagandized.

I have a solution. Adopt Mexico's illegal emigration policies. How would every one feel if the US did as Mexico does? Put US illegal aliens into the same kinds of jails for the same length of time. How does the Mexican govt determine if there are illegals in their country? How 'bout we do the same thing? Would that make all ya all who hide behind the race card feel any better? I am sure Mexico rounds up their illegals in a kind & humane manner & gives them rights they do not normally or legally have, don't they? I bet it's real easy to get food stamps & medical if you're illegal in Mexico. Sure it is!!

I have a challenge for you who support illegal immigration. Go on down to Mexico & hold rallies demanding that Mexico grant amnesty & civil rights to their illegal population. If you live I'll send ya a rubber hacksaw in a cake. :-)

When all the protesters of US policy regarding illegal immigration...oh wait...US govt policy turns a blind eye. So I guess it HAS TO BE up to the states to protect their own borders. So, lib prog, what would you suggest? Just let every one in? I'll consider that when you can prove you are hosting in your own home a dozen or so illegals. Hey, time to walk your talk!

Any one wanna post about how many hospitals in Mexifornia & else where have been over burdened & shut down due to illegals? How about the wonderful import, MS-13? Look up how many diseases are brought in by a small % of illegals. How many illegal drunk drives do we have to put up with & the death left in their wake. We have a big enough crime problem as it is. We do NOT need to allow more to sneak in. How many more ranchers have to be murdered? How much trash do they leave behind in the AZ desert? It'll blow your mind if you bother to check.

How far are you all willing to let the drug cartels invade the US? They have kidnapped their own citizens on occasion & forced them to grow the crazy grass in a coupla of states. This is one reason I support the RE-legalization of all drugs & have them run by the states. Consequence Of Use education should be mandatory for those who would use them. We MUST stop the war on drugs & try some thing else. Take the $ from the cartels! Grow your own cannabis! Opps, back to subject. :-)

We MUST know who is coming into the country. Why is that to much to ask? By the way, I was born in Tucson & have lived in AZ 59 of my 62 years. Thank you Jan!!

I have had Mexican & Original American friends all my life. I have had 3 or 4 Mexican moms 'adopt' me. I have eaten my share of Menudo. When I was a kid in Tucson I had a lot of Mexican ladies as my baby sitter. It is not that Mexican people are bad or whatever. They are NOT! My 1st long term lover was a Mexican gal I went to HS with. She was one fine gal!! Reminds me of a Bob Seger song. "...we were gettin' our share."

That being said, we MUST secure our borders!!! Do you have any idea of how many suit case nukes are missing from the old USSR? And so on....

SamFox

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h0db

April 24, 2010 9:22 AM in reply to SamFox

"Do you have any idea of how many suit case nukes are missing from the old USSR?" yeah. none. This old chestnut has been floating around since the early 1990s. Time to call BS.

We can end most illegal immigration tomorrow--enforce the laws already on the books about employing them. Fine and punish any business that does not seek to verify legal residency. Throw the worst violators into prison. No jobs, no illegal immigrants.

I'm a strong proponent of immigration, preferably legal but otherwise... as long as some of the poorest, most corrupt countries in the world sit on our southern border, their people are going to come north.

The United States is the only highly developed country in the world that does not face a demographic cliff of aging, declining population in the next decade. We are the only major developed economy in the world with rising productivity--almost entirely because of immigration. I'm not advocating our current broken system, but you have to admit that it's a fairly stringent natural selection process--for centuries we have been getting some of the best and brightest from around the world, including those Mexicans and central Americans willing to travel long distances, take enormous risks, bear unbelievable hardship just to have our most menial jobs. They are the fresh blood that keeps the US dynamic, and risk-taking. Stop pumping the paranoia about "illegal" immigrants and think about ways to document immigrants, give them a path to citizenship, and retain the dynamism (and lower prices) they bring to our country.

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mophan

April 26, 2010 5:06 PM in reply to SamFox

One problem with your argument, this is not Mexico. I refuse to walk down the street, or go anywhere with my "papers" just because of this stupid, racist law. This is the US of A, land of the free, remember? Or is it only free if you are white? The issue is, and only is, about the unjust profiling that will be going on.

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jeffgee

April 23, 2010 7:30 PM in reply to mophan

Sheriff Joe must be jizzin' his jeans over this.

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HolzHacker

April 24, 2010 12:10 AM in reply to mophan

Hey dum-dum, illegal aliens have no "civil rights" in America! Get your head outta yer a$$.

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mophan

April 24, 2010 12:52 AM in reply to HolzHacker

Hey, asshole, maybe you should understand my comment before posting. It takes just basic reading comprehension. I wasn't talking about the illegals. Pendejo.

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SilvestriWoman

April 24, 2010 1:47 PM in reply to mophan

If this was written into law in Chicago, white people would be stopped all the time. There are at least as many illegals here from Eastern Europe as south of the border.

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Suznaz

April 24, 2010 9:47 PM in reply to mophan

Wait until some over-zealous cop decides to say that folks at some political protest "look illegal" and arrests them all. Anyone can be arrested if they can't prove on the spot that they are citizens. Arizonans should now carry passports, birth certificates or naturalization papers when we go anywhere. Yet another bad Arizona law from Russell Pearce.

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April 23, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to mophan

A sad day for whose civil rights? Americans? Or unauthorized immigrants?

Civil Rights allow for foreigners to come up to the front door and apply for entry. That sounds civil to me. Those are American Civil Rights. Not Mexico's!

Were your parents related?

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mophan

April 23, 2010 6:15 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

No, but you must've been dropped on your head. Idiot. You have no idea how this law is racist. Don't even see how it could be. Moron.

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April 23, 2010 6:24 PM in reply to mophan

You see this as a race issue. I see it as an unauthorized entry issue, when one can legally obtain temporary entry or permanent citizenship.

If I sneak over your fence and break into your house are you going to want to feed me? Despite my race? If I break into your house are you going to check my race first? I don't think so.

Please don't play the "race card". Or are you Jesse Jackson?

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April 23, 2010 7:58 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I see it as an unauthorized entry issue

Well, you're screwed because this bill does ZERO to stop unauthorized entries into this country.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 8:03 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You say those things while you secretly celebrate the beginning of the GREAT PURIFICATION of this country!

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LisB

April 23, 2010 8:06 PM in reply to mophan

Secretly? ;)

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mophan

April 23, 2010 8:22 PM in reply to LisB

Well, yeah... instead of hiding behind a white hoods, NewYork and others like him now hide behind whatever identity they make for themselves on the internet.

By-the-way... nice to see you are still talking to me.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 8:31 PM in reply to mophan

PS I know what you meant ;0)

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LisB

April 23, 2010 8:35 PM in reply to mophan

Heh, not only am I talking to you....I follow you now. Consider yourself stalked, dear. ;)

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mophan

April 23, 2010 10:38 PM in reply to LisB

I.Am.Not.Worthy.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 6:19 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You know, there's a little thing called the Constitution. I guarantees certain rights to the citizens of this country, to include protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You should try reading it sometime.

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April 23, 2010 6:29 PM in reply to mophan

You are right. It's the American Constitution. NOT the illegal immigrant's Constitution.

It applies to Americans. You would probably want to protect Osama bin Laden's civil rights too.

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LisB

April 23, 2010 6:32 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You're just not getting it, are you? You're assuming the cops are ONLY going to stop those who are here illegally. Period.

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Jesus H. Christ

April 23, 2010 6:21 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

¿A sus padres se relacionaron?

Usted ha dicho que ya. Y no te repita.

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April 23, 2010 6:24 PM in reply to Jesus H. Christ

Can I see your papers?

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Orlando

April 23, 2010 6:45 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

For the win!

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 9:09 PM in reply to Orlando

¡Segundo!

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April 23, 2010 9:18 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Copies of his papers are everywhere, just check into any hotel or motel room and there they are. To find them, look at Matthew 1:1-17 (Mary) and Luke 3:23-38 (Joseph). There are some issues, like the marriage of Boaz to the pagan Ruth, that could cause some difficulties; but generally, the papers are in order.

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April 23, 2010 6:47 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

So what is "reasonable suspicion". You are a cop in Arizona. You see two people, both of whom appear to be of Mexican descent. One of them is a citizen, one of them is not. How do you tell which one you are going to stop?

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April 23, 2010 6:54 PM in reply to ladyfractal

Who said they were going to be stopped? You assume that all of a sudden all Mexicans will be stopped.

I don't see that.

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April 23, 2010 7:19 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

So what DO you see happening? It's one thing to say "this won't happen" or "you're overreacting" how DO you see this playing out? Please do go into detail.

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April 23, 2010 8:09 PM in reply to ladyfractal

Stopping people on the street is going to turn out to be huge waste of time, so the cops won't do much of it. They'll rely on catching people who break other (esp. traffic) laws, enforcing the law to make employers not hire illegals, and catching illegals applying for various government services.

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chriss1519

April 23, 2010 8:27 PM in reply to NotBornEveryMinute

How is that different than say what is happening now in other states?

You're saying this law is basically a law to enforce the law?

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April 23, 2010 11:28 PM in reply to chriss1519

Read the law. Or a summary:
http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2r/summary/h.sb1070_04-19-10_astransmittedtogovernor.doc.htm

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amber

April 23, 2010 6:54 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

New Yorkl, he's right, you're an idiot.

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April 23, 2010 7:03 PM in reply to amber

And that is your "intelligent" response? You ass.

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April 23, 2010 8:27 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Hey, asshole, I'm from New York, too. And I would kick your motherfucking ass back if I ever met you. Fucking racist scumbag.

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April 23, 2010 8:33 PM in reply to commie atheist

You couldn't break a potato chip! LOL! You don't frighten anybody. So don't start with the threats and the hate.

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April 23, 2010 8:35 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I hate haters. And you are a motherfucking racist scumbag hater. So fuck off.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 9:26 PM in reply to commie atheist

To recap: NYRob has become a latino and a tough guy, ready to duke it out and put his life on the line for the sake of the country ala, say, Dick Cheney. He's never been to Arizona, yet he is an authority on all things pertaining to civil rights in general, and, specifically the behavior of certain fascists named Joe Arpayaso*.

Yo me pregunto ¿esta pieza falsa de mierda les gusta pasar algún tiempo en Avondale este verano?

*Not a misspelling; payaso is Spanish for clown.

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April 23, 2010 9:33 PM in reply to tiowally

What are you babbling about?

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 9:42 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Así la definición de sus posiciones, imbécil.

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April 23, 2010 9:29 PM in reply to commie atheist

That was "commie atheist's" intelligent response everybody. He "hates haters"... an oxymoron.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 9:51 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

¡Perfecto! Estupendo! Ni siquiera se puede entender Inglés básico. Bien hecho.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 10:11 PM in reply to tiowally

Hey man, what's with all that foreign stuff!

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LonewackoDotCom3

April 23, 2010 7:18 PM in reply to mophan

It's a sad, sad day for civil rights.

U.S. citizens have rights too; the bill at least in spirit seeks to protect those rights. And, any infringement by the bill on actual civil rights will almost certainly be punished by the DOJ or by racial power groups. The bill also specifically mentions that it has to be performed in accordance with federal civil rights laws.

I'm not a 100% supporter of the bill, but the only reason someone would be vehemently opposed to it in general - as opposed to specific parts - is because they support illegal activity, with many of those hoping to gain something, whether money or power.

P.S. I put together a video of Obama's speech about immigration today, annotated with all the ways he's being misleading about this issue. If you trust him to tell you the truth, see the video.

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April 23, 2010 8:26 PM in reply to LonewackoDotCom3

Shut the fuck up, birther.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 8:26 PM in reply to LonewackoDotCom3

Lonewacko, hate to break it to you, but there are others out there. You don't hold a monopoly on the wackoness, unfortunately.

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Jesus H. Christ

April 24, 2010 12:08 PM in reply to LonewackoDotCom3

It's not that opponents of the bill support illegal immigration. We oppose the apriori assumption of guilt. We fear and nuturing of the latent racism that is interwoven with the opposition to the presence of immigrants.

P.S. Unless you are a member of of a Native American tribe you are here because of an immigrant.

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big jonny

April 23, 2010 7:19 PM in reply to mophan

I live in Phoenix. And I think this is a bad idea.

I did not see it spelled out prior to this comment, but it seems more than a few of you need to know some basic facts about reasonable suspicion.

Generally speaking, it is:

Suspicion is “reasonable” if the officer can point to specific and articulable facts that, along with reasonable inferences from those facts, justify the intrusion. Reasonable suspicion that a crime has been or is being committed may be based on one or more of the following information:
• the police officer’s personal observations.
• reliable hearsay.
• criminal profiles.
• unprovoked flight.

If you don't think that is pretty much wide open, you need to read up on it. A police officer can essentially ask anyone, at any time, in any place for I.D. & proof of immigration status.

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JohnMcCSF

April 23, 2010 9:40 PM in reply to mophan

Born in East LA
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2026973/v2168232

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mophan

April 23, 2010 10:01 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF

Orale!

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mike m

April 24, 2010 1:51 PM in reply to mophan

hmmm

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mike m

April 24, 2010 1:59 PM in reply to mophan

illegal immigration is so harmful to our country. my wife is 100% Hispanic and has 200 cousins in Arizona and California. As she explains it, her family came to America to become Americans. these illegals come to America for $ and to make America like the countries that they left. they cause lower wages, higher levels crime, drugs, and no appreciation for those things that our founding fathers valued as part of our culture. Capitalism, property ownership, personal responsibilty. And like Marco Rubio and many Hispanics who are here legally, my wife and her entire family think that we need to crack down on illegals before they "change" our country into something that we really do not want.

Obama is once again trying to play the race card. It will not work. Those Hispanics who have long history in our country understand the mistake that they made in voting for him in 2008.

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mike m

April 24, 2010 2:22 PM in reply to mophan

have you ever been in a foreign country? if so, then you know that you must have "papers" to be there. one time on a train ride between Vienna and Buda Pest, the police on the train asked me for my "papers" 3 times. Here in the USA, the liberals have demonized protecting our country and our culture so they can "change" it to something other than what our founding fathers intended. they gave us personal responsibility, capitalism, personal property ownership, and laws based on Judeo/Christian heritage. Now, liberals what to make us all dependent on the government, get rid of personal responsibility, and turn us into a secular country. it is time to say "stop!" and Arizona is the firs to have the courage to do it ... first with the law against the healthcare "insurance" bill, then with the law making all presidentual candidates provide proof of being natural born citizens to be on their ballots, and now with taking action against "illegal" immigrants. now wonder that liberals are so against Arizona. they have much to lose if Arizona succeeds.

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big jonny

April 25, 2010 6:59 PM in reply to mike m

No one in Arizona wants Arizona to fail, sparky.

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big jonny

April 25, 2010 7:01 PM in reply to mike m

No one in Arizona wants Arizona to fail, sparky.

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mophan

April 26, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to mike m

We are NOT in a foreign country. We are in the United States where individual rights, freedoms, and liberties are respected, at least until now. There are other ways to deal with illegal immigration. This law is purely racist, and to say progs/libs/Obama are playing the race card for pointing out it is racist is beyond ridiculous, to say the least.

I don't care who your wife is, my wife is the from Mars and they all don't support illegal aliens there either. They do acknowledge the injustice and harm to civil rights this law provides.

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jolly ranchero

April 23, 2010 4:40 PM

The legislation allows law enforcement to demand immigration papers from anyone they reasonably suspect they are illegally in the country.

She said she will not tolerate racial discrimination or profiling.

These two statements could not possibly be more in conflict with each other.

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April 23, 2010 5:10 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

It's self-evident. How in hell is race and apparent ethnic origin NOT going to be a part of being suspect?

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April 23, 2010 6:17 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Yes it may be. So what? What is your point?

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April 23, 2010 6:28 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Are you really that dense? The point is that it's inherently discriminatory. Your family might have lived in Arizona for 10 generations, but if you're Latino you'd better have your papers with you. If you're white, no sweat.

Even Brewer felt compelled to insist that "We must enforce the law evenly and without regard to skin color, accent or social status." So here's a challenge for you or anyone who thinks that's remotely possible. Come up with one thing that would give you "reasonable suspicion" that is not discriminatory. Just one.

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April 23, 2010 6:38 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

You are assuming that the police are ONLY going to stop Mexicans.

Wrong.

Thank you.

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Orlando

April 23, 2010 6:47 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Not true. I'm assuming they will also stop Hondurans, Guatamalans, Costa Ricans, Columbians, and AMERICANS who happen to have brown skin.

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April 23, 2010 7:06 PM in reply to Orlando

You think only people with "brown skin" will be stopped? You are racist.

I agree with the Governor.

If you enter my house illegally, I'm not going to check your skin color.

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Orlando

April 23, 2010 7:10 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Stop being deliberately stupid. It's irritating.

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April 23, 2010 7:23 PM in reply to Orlando

Please stop being self-important. Stop supporting illegal activity. All of a sudden, illegal immigrants have special protection?

You sound like an illegal immigrant.

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April 23, 2010 7:53 PM in reply to Orlando

It's New York's job. This person is a paid troll. Ignore them.

And dollars to donuts they are as white as Casper the Ghost(or my lily-white ass for that matter)

This is bad policy and a bad law. If Arizona was serious about illegal immigration they would institute draconian penalties against anyone who hires a non-citizen without legal rights to work.

But they don't.

Why is that?

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big jonny

April 23, 2010 7:27 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

New York,
Maybe you don't get it (assuming you live where you suggest that you do). We're not talking about anyone breaking into your house. Here in Arizona, there are thousands and thousands of illegals. Some are hard working, productive people. Others are criminals. We have the criminal justice system to deal with criminals. Now, every golf course, restaurant, construction business, and, well everything, has a rather large problem. You see, we simultaneously rail against illegal aliens and employ them in this state.

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April 23, 2010 7:45 PM in reply to big jonny

True, some are hard working. So why come here for work? The richest man in the world, Carlos Slim, is Mexican! The Mexican government, NOT America, should address the work issue by providing jobs. Illegal immigrants don't come here for better lives, they come here for jobs that they can't get in Mexico!

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April 23, 2010 8:29 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Shut the fuck up, troll.

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jsfox

April 23, 2010 7:05 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Your right it won't be just Mexicans it will be anybody with a brown skin.

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Leftflank

April 23, 2010 8:14 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

New York is a long way from Arizona. The assumption is that you know what you're talking about without actually living in or near Arizona. It's a border state to Mexico like you are to Canada. You gotta be hatin' on those Canucks too, right?
Like all racists today, you can't just come out & say it. This bill is geared towards Mexicans 100%, dancing around the truth doesn't change that. Why even have the damn bill if their not profiling? Will hassling a few honkies make it all seem OK?
A hundred bucks says Arizona will be suffering so badly, not only from this pathetic law, that despite it's wild west attitude & racial bigotry, it will beg for the Mexicans & tourism to return before any of these pols are out of office.

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free, etc, etc.

USA = melting pot. It's what we are. Sound familiar?

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April 23, 2010 8:17 PM in reply to Leftflank

The bill targets illegal immigrants not Mexicans. You are the one making a silly judgment.

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mophan

April 24, 2010 12:26 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

Illegal immigrants that are Mexican, Guatemalan, Panamanian... it doesn't matter. They all have brown skin. Nevermind that LEGAL citizens who have brown skin will be UNCONSTITUTIONALLY SEARCHED and DETAINED. It is all for the greater good.

Hey... have I forgotten to mention you are a racist?

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 6:50 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Have you ever been to Arizona? It used to be part of Mexico, and a major percentage of the residents, including citizens, are of Latino descent. They have just formally been made into second class citizens. This law has to be overturned.

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April 23, 2010 7:31 PM in reply to skitzo

Excuse me. Mexico surrendered Arizona. Please come back to the future.

The United States took possession of most of Arizona at the end of the Mexican War in 1848. Mexico LOST the war, get over it. In 1853 the land below the Gila River was acquired from Mexico in the Gadsden Purchase.

Does America have to defeat Mexico again?

I say America should seize all of Mexico. Then Mexico would truly be American. And what could Mexico do about it?

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:02 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

NewYorkRob is claiming two contradictory things;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 7:13 PM in reply to amber

Ha! Guess what Amber! I'm hispanic too!

But he said;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions. So what are you talking about? It is not racially discriminatory to ask for ones papers. I'm White and I get asked many times.

which is it, do you loom "white" and get asked for your papers? .... or are you hispanic looking?

BUSTED TROLL

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Davran

April 23, 2010 5:15 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

No, no, you misunderstand. This will only be used on those people.

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Heraldblog

April 23, 2010 5:53 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

The legislation requires (not just allows) law enforcement to demand immigration papers from anyone who they have a "reasonable suspicion" is in the country illegally.

I might be wrong, but don't police already have the authority to confirm immigration status, as long as there is probable cause to do so?

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April 23, 2010 5:55 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

Racial profiling? Suppose they are White sneaking over? Illegal entry is illegal!

If someone walked into your house uninvited what would you do? Ask for ID? No! You would eject him forcibly! So please don't play the "race" card. If someone just walks into my house uninvited I'm not checking his "race"! I'm getting my weapon.

Therefore, the US is being very charitable to these illegal immigrants.

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April 23, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Do you think that Arizona state troopers will be asking white people for their identification papers? Really? That's amusing.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 8:46 PM in reply to Honey Bunches Of Stoats

That's where his argument falls apart. He is just too dumb to realize it.

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FreemanW

April 24, 2010 3:58 AM in reply to mophan

You just can't fix stupid.

If brains could be melted down into gasoline?

NewYorkRob doesn't have enough to power an Ant's motorcycle half way around a Cheerio.

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April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions. So what are you talking about? It is not racially discriminatory to ask for ones papers. I'm White and I get asked many times.

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April 23, 2010 6:08 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

What occasions are you asked for your papers?

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April 23, 2010 6:15 PM in reply to Honey Bunches Of Stoats

Occasions such as driving. Or at check points for drunk drivers for example (I don't drink). When I go to apply for or renew a driver's license I get asked for identification and papers. There are other examples too.

And another point, everyone in the world cannot come and occupy America. At what point do we say enough?

Thank you.

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Heraldblog

April 23, 2010 6:30 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

A driver's license is not the same as your "papers". I am an American citizen, and my only proof of citizenship is my birth certificate, which I haven't been asked for in years.

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April 23, 2010 6:51 PM in reply to Heraldblog

That is true. But when I applied for my driver's license they asked for a birth certificate.

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April 23, 2010 6:34 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

No, everyone can't come here, but this law is an absolutely horrible and ineffective piece of legislation. You know what works? Cracking down on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Papers can be forged, police can be fooled.

This law is terribly flawed. AZ will soon be neck deep in lawsuits. The provision that allows citizens to sue law enforcement if they think law enforcement isn't doing enough is ridiculous. It's so open ended, anyone can abuse it. Meanwhile, people of a certain color (and 25% of Arizona's legal citizens are Hispanic) will be put at greater risk for harassment and arrest. This is just a terribly conceived bill.

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April 23, 2010 6:36 PM in reply to Honey Bunches Of Stoats

HTML fail. Sorry.

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April 23, 2010 6:41 PM in reply to Honey Bunches Of Stoats

You sound pro-illegal-entry. Just don't enter my house illegally please. You will be disappointed.

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April 23, 2010 6:51 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Well, that's intelligent. And it really addresses the points I made.

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April 23, 2010 7:01 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

And the first lawsuit is in the works! What a boon for the lawyers of AZ.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/23/20100423arziona-immigration-bill-mayor-gordon.html

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mophan

April 24, 2010 1:13 AM in reply to Honey Bunches Of Stoats

Ah, and did you read the hateful comments posted after that article? Can people really be that stupid? Or are they intentionally that hateful?

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April 23, 2010 7:49 PM in reply to Honey Bunches Of Stoats

Oh, I see. It's not profiling when one only targets employers.

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April 23, 2010 8:19 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

What? You make no sense. Employers can be any color.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 6:54 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Bullshit. You get asked for your papers when you commit a moving violation, or if you are young looking and want to buy alcohol. You don't randomly get asked to produce ID when you are walking down the street.

The place to stop illegals from entering the country is at the border. Nabbing anyone walking down the street because they look "illegal" is a license for police abuse.

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April 23, 2010 8:09 PM in reply to skitzo

I agree with your statement.

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April 23, 2010 8:29 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

So now you concede that this law is inviting abuse by the police?

http://www.michaelrighi.com/2007/09/01/arrested-at-circuit-city/

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Boidster

April 23, 2010 7:18 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions

You are never asked, on the occasion of simply existing (in motion or not) on the street, to prove that you are allowed to be in the country. You are not, in fact, required to show or possess any papers or ID of any type whatsoever, unless executing a privilege granted by your local, state, or federal government for which a permit or license is required, and required to be carried.

When you are driving, for example, you are required by all states to have on your possession your license to operate a motor vehicle and further to show said license to any law enforcement officer who observes you operating a motor vehicle ("operating" in many states does include "just sitting inside of") and has otherwise some probable cause to stop you. You are not, however, required to carry your operator's permit with you at all times, nor are you required to show it to law enforcement even if you are carrying it.

If you voluntarily engage in business with private or public entities, then you may be required to present identification in order to successfully complete the transaction. You cannot be forced, however, to show any identification (understanding that refusal may end the transaction).

(All of the above should now carry the caveat "except in Arizona", where the Constitutional rights those of us in the other 49 states currently enjoy have been stripped. At least until the Supreme Court smacks this insanity down.)

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docrocktex

April 23, 2010 7:48 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Wait a minute, which one is it? Are you White or Hispanic? In one of your previous comments you state that you're Hispanic, but now all of a sudden you're White. Unless you're White with Hispanic origins, it looks like you're lying.

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April 23, 2010 7:58 PM in reply to docrocktex

In other words you just refuse to acknowledge that what I am saying may be reasonable.

Now you are the one who's checking ones race.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 10:59 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Hey, dumbass... do you not realize what is the obvious reply to docrocktex? Instead you go with

In other words you just refuse to acknowledge that what I am saying may be reasonable.
Now you are the one who's checking ones race.

LAME! A real Latino would know the obvious response. Instead, you show youself as a lyer!

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clif

April 23, 2010 7:56 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

NewYorkRob is claiming two contradictory things;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 7:13 PM in reply to amber

Ha! Guess what Amber! I'm hispanic too!

But he said;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions. So what are you talking about? It is not racially discriminatory to ask for ones papers. I'm White and I get asked many times.

which is it, do you loom "white" and get asked for your papers? .... or are you hispanic looking?

BUSTED TROLL

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Ethan

April 23, 2010 4:40 PM

Congratulations, Brewer, you are now going to go down in history as the American equivalent of Prime Minister Malan (the South African PM who institutionalized Apartheid).

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picklenoses

April 23, 2010 4:42 PM

ok...so she says she won't tolerate racial discrimination or profiling...

So how do they plan on enforcing this -- microchips implanted on all citizens and legal immigrants--only those without the microchips get asked?

Give me a break.

I wonder how much business Scottsdale will lose due to companies deciding to hold their conferences elsewhere.

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Beautiful Mind of Barbara Bush

April 23, 2010 5:09 PM in reply to picklenoses

It's easy to spot a foreigner. They are always wearing serapes and sombreros, and they are always leading a donkey around on a rope. They are also always standing beside a large cactus and a mariachi tune can be heard in the background. Ole!

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Davran

April 23, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to Beautiful Mind of Barbara Bush

No, no. They're the ones with brown eyes and brown hair. Or brown skin. Or yellow skin. Or red skin. Or Obama stickers on the backs of their cars.

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drewcypher

April 23, 2010 7:06 PM in reply to Davran

Bingo. Even here in Colorado, a pair of people sporting Obama bumper stickers on their car got booted from a Bush event. If you're not with us, you're against us. This is a license for indiscriminate police abuse based on whatever they hell they feel like.

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DavisDem

April 23, 2010 5:25 PM in reply to picklenoses

And ignore those foreigners that wear socks with their sandals. They're from good countries.

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Ethan

April 23, 2010 4:43 PM

George Wallace would be proud of you, Brewer, you sleazeball.

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April 23, 2010 6:19 PM in reply to Ethan

Congratulations Ethan! You are invited to illegally cross the border and occupy Mexico!

I'll help you pack!

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clif

April 23, 2010 7:59 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

NewYorkRob is claiming two contradictory things;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 7:13 PM in reply to amber

Ha! Guess what Amber! I'm hispanic too!

But he said;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions. So what are you talking about? It is not racially discriminatory to ask for ones papers. I'm White and I get asked many times.

which is it, do you loom "white" and get asked for your papers? .... or are you hispanic looking?

BUSTED TROLL

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Red XIV

April 24, 2010 12:58 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

Congratulations troll. You're invited to, in the words of Jon Stewart, go **** yourself.

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Duck Stab

April 23, 2010 4:43 PM

Boy, I feel so much safer already. I am sure now we can purge Arizona of all those Belgians and Canadians living here illegally.

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John M

April 23, 2010 8:41 PM in reply to Duck Stab

Those Canadian and other non-American citizen baseball players better watch themselves during Cactus Spring Training in Arizona, that is, unless the teams boycott Arizona Spring Training next season.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 9:38 PM in reply to John M

Belgians? I've never met a Belgian in Arizona. And I've been to nearly all the Waffle Houses thereabouts.

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ClosetLuddite

April 23, 2010 4:46 PM

Anagram of Arizona: NAZI ora

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April 23, 2010 5:13 PM in reply to ClosetLuddite

The cultural and political norms of a locale are never uncontested. I am sure there are plenty of Arizonans who are deeply upset by this -- including those who are not likely to ever be on the "wrong" side of this law.

Even your puerile anagram suggests a certain degree of symmetry: the O.R.A. (organisation de résistance de l'armée) stood against fascism in France during WWII.

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tiowally

April 23, 2010 10:03 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason

Excellent call.

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April 23, 2010 7:20 PM in reply to ClosetLuddite

Anagram of "closetluddite" is Docile Slutted !?

What is your point?

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Ethan

April 23, 2010 4:47 PM

Next up on the agenda, security checkpoints on all highways to enforce this law./snark

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rynato

April 23, 2010 5:00 PM in reply to Ethan

There are already immigration checkpoints in southern AZ (Border Patrol-manned).

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jolly ranchero

April 23, 2010 4:48 PM

"We must enforce the law evenly and without regard to skin color, accent or social status," she said.

What the fuck does this even mean? Are they going to stop and ask EVERYONE? Every white person gets stopped as often as the darker ones? I call bullshit. How does this jive with the 4th Amendy requiring probable cause before detaining someone?

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Ethan

April 23, 2010 4:50 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

Yes, of course all she's saying is BS. She just wants to appease the GOP base and Lord Arapio.

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GTFOOH

April 23, 2010 4:51 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

She also said we must not discriminate against "people that don't look like us." Who the hell is US? I thought the country was already made up of people of all creed and colors.

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acf_ma

April 23, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to GTFOOH

She also said we must not discriminate against "people that don't look like us."

How does that statement even reconcile with police stopping people who they think don't look like legal immigrants because "they can tell by the shoes they wear"? The whole bill smells like law enforcement by profiling.

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April 23, 2010 6:08 PM in reply to acf_ma

"People who look like us..." seems simple to me. She means anyone from another galaxy who don't look like earthlings.

You are dumb.

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:00 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

NewYorkRob is claiming two contradictory things;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 7:13 PM in reply to amber

Ha! Guess what Amber! I'm hispanic too!

But he said;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions. So what are you talking about? It is not racially discriminatory to ask for ones papers. I'm White and I get asked many times.

which is it, do you loom "white" and get asked for your papers? .... or are you hispanic looking?

BUSTED TROLL

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GTFOOH

April 25, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to clif

Pretty good clif!

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April 23, 2010 6:04 PM in reply to GTFOOH

By "us," she is referring to the far-right political base whose racial animus she is narrowly serving by her action. Evidently they are all remarkably similar in appearance.

Not sure why you would ever expect a statewide elected official in this bastion of liberty that is the USA to do otherwise, or to think otherwise.

After all, politics is a zero-sum bloodsport to be conducted not only at the expense of minorities outside the franchise, but also without regard to the preferences or rights of those within the franchise who can't be reasonably expected to ever vote for you.

Before too long, outside observers and political scientists from around the world will be trying to reconstruct exactly when and how the white nationalist political movement, with its attendant white nationalist paramilitary groups, began to hold sway in this country -- or at least in parts of it.

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expat46

April 23, 2010 7:24 PM in reply to Cool Blue Reason

Well said.

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April 23, 2010 8:02 PM in reply to GTFOOH

"She also said we must not discriminate against "people that don't look like us." Who the hell is US? I thought the country was already made up of people of all creed and colors."

She could be referring to males!

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April 23, 2010 8:34 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Fuck off, asshole. You're a racist scumbag who deserves a beat-down. Now get lost.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 4:52 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

Exactly. Where is the first group to file a lawsuit in behalf of millions who are legally in this country and will be disenfranchised? ACLU? La RAZA? I expect an injunction by Monday morning.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 6:39 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

Its ludicrous. I haven't read the bill, and it may be artfully worded, but I have to believe it is also unconstitutional. Immigration is the exclusive province of the federal government. States are not allowed to have their own foreign policy.

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3Fan

April 23, 2010 4:50 PM

I guess the AZ Dept of Tourism will be updating their website soon.

Things to bring while visiting our state:
1. Lightweight clothing
2. Sunscreen
3. Travel papers

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mophan

April 23, 2010 4:59 PM in reply to 3Fan

She urged the law's supporters and enforcers to be careful not to make "even the slightest misstep."
"We must prove the alarmists and the cynics wrong," she said.

She openly admits, in not so many words, this bill signals the opening of hunting season on Latinos. Racial profiling has been legalized in Arizona.

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Davran

April 23, 2010 5:20 PM in reply to mophan

I guess the AZ Dept of Tourism will be updating their website soon.
Things to bring while visiting our state:
1. Lightweight clothing
2. Sunscreen
3. Travel papers

Don't forget your white hood!

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April 23, 2010 6:44 PM in reply to Davran

Don't forget your box-cutter. And where the pilot sits...

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 7:02 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Because some religious nuts hijacked a few planes 9 years ago and killed some people, we are supposed to surrender our civil rights and submit to a police state? That is so against American principle. I suppose we are no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave. More like a police state and a nation of cowards.

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WaitWut?

April 23, 2010 5:15 PM in reply to 3Fan

All under the heading:

Welcome to Arizona...Land of the Freaks, Home of the Crazed!

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Debster

April 23, 2010 5:44 PM in reply to 3Fan

Do not travel to Arizona. It's BOYCOTT time. This is heinous.

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April 23, 2010 6:51 PM in reply to Debster

I never had any intention of going to Arizona. Nevertheless, I'm in. What do they produce? Cactus? Rattlesnakes? Those I'm not needing either.

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Sailormarlowe

April 23, 2010 4:52 PM

So, uhhh...only white cooks in Chinese restaurants? Bummer.

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WaitWut?

April 23, 2010 5:02 PM in reply to Sailormarlowe

WTH is that supposed to mean? I'll have you know that this white girl makes one helluva ginger chicken!

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April 23, 2010 6:57 PM in reply to WaitWut?

Do you deliver? Two orders. Some hot and sour soup would be nice as well.

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WaitWut?

April 23, 2010 7:35 PM in reply to Effin Rightman

I haven't tried the hot and sour soup, yet. My next experiment will be egg rolls. Funny story...my daughter-in-law is Japanese and when I told her I wanted to make egg rolls she got the same look on her face that Lucy Liu did in Kill Bill when fighting with Uma, "Silly white girl likes to play with samurai swords", look. Then she just shook her head, somewhat fiercely, and said, "Nooooooo..."

I only deliver within the boundaries of Arizona. Since there is a nationwide boycott on my state, I'm afraid you'll have to wait until this state raises their IQ and elects a Democratic Governor...which should be very soon.

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April 23, 2010 7:49 PM in reply to WaitWut?

For you, a little enlightement.

If you practice Zen meditation for long periods of time, you may be criticized by friends and relatives who feel you are shutting them out. Ignore these people.
--Zen Judaism

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WaitWut?

April 23, 2010 7:53 PM in reply to Effin Rightman

LOL!!! I'm stealing that!

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http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/nigella-lawson/hot-and-sour-soup-recipe/index.html

April 23, 2010 7:56 PM in reply to WaitWut?

Also, this:

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NerdRage

April 23, 2010 4:54 PM

first step on the road to a Fascist state

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jolly ranchero

April 23, 2010 4:58 PM

White people in AZ are about to find out how much it sucks to have wash their own dishware in restaurants and mow their own lawn. Do they really think these immigrants add nothing to the economy?

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M. Digby IV

April 23, 2010 4:58 PM

Damn. My local AA intergroup (a group representing many meetings from a area) was going to AZ next year. Now its not going to happen. So it looks like we are going to go stay in Santa Fe (friggin hippies) also it cost more. I agree with the decision. Small price to pay not support a Nazi state. Stupid racist.

M.D. IV

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kevbo

April 23, 2010 5:07 PM in reply to M. Digby IV

Santa Fe is to Californicated these days. Go to Taos instead.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 7:05 PM in reply to M. Digby IV

Santa Fe is a much nicer place than anywhere in Arizona.

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GTFOOH

April 23, 2010 4:58 PM

Just wait till those ranchers in Arizona realize what the cost increases will be, without those migrant workers.

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April 23, 2010 4:59 PM

Well, I'll be canceling that trip to Havasu. Tahoe is sounding good.

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WaitWut?

April 23, 2010 5:00 PM

I'm tempted to send her a funeral wreath in recognition of the death of her political career.

Thank you, Frau Brewer. Now, I can sit back and watch the implosion of this state. Good thing it's Friday. It would suck to start a civil war on a Monday.

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NuttyProf

April 23, 2010 5:02 PM

Rep. Grijalva called for a boycott. Dems should back him up.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 5:04 PM

Alright all you bleeding hearts, what should AZ do when almost a third of the population is Spanish? Give me a solution.

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docrocktex

April 23, 2010 5:11 PM in reply to Cornelius

A solution to what? You haven't exactly articulated a problem. FYI, Spanish does not equal illegal. If you can't handle 30% of the population being Spanish, find somewhere else to live because hispanics will be a majority in a mere 30 years.

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April 23, 2010 5:22 PM in reply to docrocktex

I disagree. He's inadvertently articulated the REAL problem. It has nothing to do with people being legal or not legal. The "problem" is that almost a third of the population is Spanish.

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hoppycalif2

April 23, 2010 7:22 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Pau Gasol is Spanish. And, a couple of other NBA players, as I recall. Other than that I can't recall a single Spanish person in this country. Now, I do know a lot of people from Mexico, Colombia, El Salvador, Panama, etc. It's good to hear that they aren't a problem. I suppose we find Spanish people to be a problem because of the years when they had a dictator in charge?

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 7:41 PM in reply to hoppycalif2

Go Thunder!

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mophan

April 23, 2010 9:13 PM in reply to hoppycalif2

No, I think it's because of the Spanish-American War. Many in the right wing are still not over it. How dare Spain leave the United States responsible for Puerto Rico and the Philippines filled with all those little brown people.

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April 23, 2010 5:15 PM in reply to Cornelius

Just have the cops shoot anyone who appears to be Latino.

See? That's a "solution" to the illegal immigration problem. Any dipshit can come up with a "solution" if you're not too picky about such mundane issues as basic fairness and discrimination.

Now it's your turn: Explain to me how the cops are going to form a "reasonable suspicion" that a person is here illegally without profiling on the basis of race and apparent ethnic origin? How many light-skinned people do you think will be suspects? It's a self-evident contradiction.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 5:38 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Lighten up dude, just looking for a solution, or should I say answer, so everyone doesn't get hysterical. You're right "Any dipshit can come up with a "solution" if you're not too picky about such mundane issues as basic fairness and discrimination". OK, so what's the answer and let's be picky and consider basic fairness, as you mention. And yes it's totally unworkable, as ridiculous as prohibition days and I would not want to be a cop in AZ this weekend, but, what's to be done about it? The Dems and Repubs have both avoided this problem for at least 25 years and now it is about to explode. What to do?

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April 23, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to Cornelius

I'll give you two answers:

1. If you really want to address the "problem" (more on this in #2), take away the incentive. Go after employers who leach off these people. If no employer will hire people without proof they're here legally, you'll be amazed at how fast the problem goes away.

2. Why is this a problem? Seriously. It's not as if these people come here and all live off welfare. Only a tiny few manage to game the system and do so. The vast majority work hard and get paid shit. As a group they're more law-abiding than natives. Even if they're paid off the books, they pay taxes through sales taxes, utility taxes, and indirectly through property taxes. They spend pretty much everything they earn, which stimulates the local economy. So what, exactly, is the "problem"?

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hoppycalif2

April 23, 2010 7:28 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

The Guv today implied that the problem is the Mexican drug dealers and their crime wave. If that is true, perhaps we loyal good citizens could just do without the drugs, taking away the market, and the drug dealers would have to find another place to play their games. And, I have always wondered why we consider Mexican workers to be such a bad thing, when every time a law is passed to "correct" the "problem" it always allows for lots and lots of Mexican agricultural workers to come here. I'm sure this is a far fetched idea, but could it be that the big agricultural corporations want lots of cheap labor? But, they want that labor to vanish during the off seasons?

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 8:14 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

#1 - you're correct - my post below to Loria says the same thing.
#2 - free services - schooling, hospitals, etc.

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gonzo

April 23, 2010 10:14 PM in reply to Cornelius

As long as they're paying rent to the landlords, they're paying property taxes indirectly for the "free" services you speak of.

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Beautiful Mind of Barbara Bush

April 23, 2010 5:15 PM in reply to Cornelius

By "Spanish," do you mean people from Spain, or do you mean Latinos? In either case, why does anything need to be *done* at all? There's no problem here, so why the draconian solution?

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loria

April 23, 2010 5:16 PM in reply to Cornelius

Are they all in the US illegally? No, they aren't, but that won't matter.

Here's an idea for you since you can't possibly think this through on your own. How about they heavily fine or prosecute the employers who hire those who are undocumented? People wouldn't be crossing the border illegally if there weren't plenty of jobs. I know you'd like to ignore this side of the issue, but how about we see some employers rounded up and taken to jail?

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 5:26 PM in reply to loria

sisterkevin is off his meds. don't try having a rational conversation with him. he'll just call you stupid. By his own admission in his own words, he's a viet nam vet, did the thorazine shuffle, had to go back to work, his wife lost her health insurance, his kids can't find a job and he has to pay for their health insurance and he's bitter. AND IT'S ALL OBAMA'S FAULT.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 7:50 PM in reply to chameleon

Don't be a bitch. Called you stupid bec you don't read my posts, just make assumptions based on your luv for Obama, If I criticize him it does not mean I hate him. I can't fight that kind of "logic". As a result I find you stupid.

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 11:13 PM in reply to Cornelius

Get back on those meds. I am not the only one who has a problem with you. Half of TPM has kicked your butt on more than one occasion because of your idiotic statements - this story is a perfect case in point. Now you are begging everyone to forgive you because you've made an ass out of yourself. This has nothing to do with Obama. It has to do with your lousy fucking attitude.

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April 23, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to loria

Constitution? We don't need no stinking Constitution!

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condew

April 23, 2010 6:02 PM in reply to loria

I was thinking ruinous fines, but jail will do. I want the employer who saves $1 by hiring an illegal to pay $5 or $10 in fines when caught.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 6:12 PM in reply to loria

Lighten up! Give me some love Loria. I gave you the idea on selling your Saturn w/o the AC. for the medical procedure, and the 200 lbs of summer squash. Remember?
Are they all in the US illegally? No, they aren't, but that won't matter. I love your answer - it's mine also. You have to establish a reason for people not to come across the border for work. Like you say, you "heavily fine or prosecute the employers who hire those who are undocumented? People wouldn't be crossing the border illegally if there weren't plenty of jobs". And better yet, even if they are illegal and working here, as long as the employers pay their payroll taxes, disability, med insurance, etc., and the workers are also taxed, well then they can work here. But this won't happen (remember one thing - CHEAP LABOR) because corporate America won't allow it. Their messenger boys in Congress, the Republicans, in coordination with the Chamber of Congress, are their to serve their masters. And the Democrats want to control their lock on the Spanish vote so they won't do anything, and the Catholic Church wants every Spanish family and their five babies growing up under the Catholic influence to swell their congregations. So they offer charity under the guise of "compassion". Right now in America the Spanish population is the future life line of the Catholic Church. So there you have it. And if your ideas come to pass, the illegal workers, who work for close to nothing, and w/o any protections, would say "you can't tax me when you're paying me less than minimum wage. We won't stand for it and will start a workers union for more money"! And there you have it. But it will not work in America today because the illegals/undocumented workers have no one on their side. It's all about cheap labor, first and last.

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loria

April 23, 2010 8:23 PM in reply to Cornelius

Okay,
We probably do agree on a whole lot. But, what we probably don't agree on is that this is a good way to stop the problem I don't have a problem with deporting those who are found to be in the country illegally. I would like to see a crack down on the employers. But, I do have a problem with Latinos having to prove they are in the country legally. especially when considering the number who are likely citizens. If someone is found to be here illegally that's fine. But when you go out searching for illegals based on the color of their skin, I have a problem with that.

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April 23, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to Cornelius

Considering the fact Arizona started out 100% Native American or Spanish, I would think you would happy with 30%.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 9:30 PM in reply to SchrodingersCat

Yes, yes, poor choice of words.

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DavisDem

April 23, 2010 5:28 PM in reply to Cornelius

Tapas for everyone!

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dbushik

April 23, 2010 5:39 PM in reply to DavisDem

Now that, good sir, is a solution we can all get behind. Except the racists. And some people with like acid-reflux, but that kind of depends on the particulars of the tapas.

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April 23, 2010 6:19 PM in reply to dbushik

I don't believe the racists particularly mind Spaniards, or their food, per se. But I'm assuming they can properly identify them, or it, which is questionable.

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cwnidog

April 23, 2010 6:27 PM in reply to dbushik

I occasionally get acid reflux. Sometimes you just gotta play with the pain. Bring those little dishes on!

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 10:13 PM in reply to DavisDem

me to?

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April 23, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to Cornelius

Perhaps the sort of solution you're looking for is more along the lines of a "final" one?

A third of the population being "Spanish" isn't a problem to be solved any more than an a third of it being "English" has been.

Perhaps you could invest some time and effort in learning to communicate with members of a European cultural and linguistic lineage that has been resident on this continent for at least as long as your own. No doubt your expect the same of them -- and perhaps you will get to know some of your neighbors in the process.

Or, if you can't muster that kind of effort, perhaps you could try simply respecting the intrinsic worth of your fellow human beings.

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Russell

April 23, 2010 5:48 PM in reply to Cornelius

You're a sad sick person!

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 8:08 PM in reply to Russell

He really is.....

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Brownbagger

April 23, 2010 8:23 PM in reply to chameleon

Someone we know is back.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 8:40 PM in reply to Brownbagger

Is she! Lousgirl? I'm in bigggg trouble. BB, they're killing me here. Poor choice of words true but qualified it in my response to Loria, defending the illegals. She was OK with it. Sheesh!
BTW how's Tatoo girl. Come on, don't be so smug.

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Viva!America!

April 23, 2010 5:50 PM in reply to Cornelius

Learn to speak Spanish.

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condew

April 23, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to Viva!America!

I see, so somebody immigrates to the U.S. without adequate language skills, and the solution is that everybody else should learn another language? B.S.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 8:10 PM in reply to condew

School was obviously never your strong suit. Learning a second language (or third) is something most educated people do in this world.
Actually, most immigrants come here because they are ambitious, hard working and want a better life, just like most of our ancestors. And they learn the language. Teaching ESL is a huge business.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 9:40 PM in reply to Viva!America!

Maybe your right. Got trouble expressing myself in English. Was trying to say illegals instead of Spanish, and answer instead of problem. Got sloppy. In a rush sometimes. Was looking for an answer to an "issue" that no one want to address - for about 25 years.

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h0db

April 23, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to Cornelius

Really hoping that a latino police officer pulls you over and asks you to prove your citizenship. Drivers license? Naw, won't cut it. Go ahead, PROVE you are a citizen.

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April 23, 2010 6:50 PM in reply to Cornelius

Thank you for articulating the problem, as you see it, perfectly. I think it's odious but I appreciate your having the courage of your convictions.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 7:33 PM in reply to ladyfractal

TY Lady. Thought I was being constructive. It's amazing how little people actually read what you post.

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April 23, 2010 7:49 PM in reply to Cornelius

Actually, that wasn't a compliment, sir. I'm not sure you're aware WHAT you said so let me quote you back to yourself:

"Alright all you bleeding hearts, what should AZ do when almost a third of the population is Spanish? Give me a solution."

Please note you didn't say "a third of the population are undocumented" but "a third of the population is Spanish". I'm not thanking you because I agree with you, sir. I find your statement bigoted and odious. I am thanking you because it's clear, certainly to those of us for whom racial profiling isn't an abstraction, that this law is about race and your statement makes it clear that for you this is about the ethnicity of the people--it just so happens that the Mexican and Central Americans who come into the country illegally (which I do NOT support) make it easy for you to hide your bigotry behind law and order rhetoric.

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 8:00 PM in reply to ladyfractal

Easy Lady! I'll have to be more careful with my word choice in the future. There are so many Obamabots here that I love to push their buttons. Hate listening to the echo chamber.

BTW - I thought you were referring to my response to Loria's response about what I stated - it's a little further down. Thought it was pretty good and in defense of illegals. But this is too sensitive a subject I guess to have a rational discussion.

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neesy08

April 23, 2010 5:04 PM

this is terrible. it reminds me of when the nazis had jewish people carry id cards. it sets you apart as a "other." and we all know what happened to the jews. i hope history does not repeat itself in its entirety

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April 23, 2010 5:58 PM in reply to neesy08

You just proved Goodwin's Law! Well done! Look it up!

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mophan

April 24, 2010 1:20 AM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Go to hell with your freaking Goodwin's Law. Damn troll.

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April 23, 2010 8:09 PM in reply to neesy08

well, yes, but at least the real Nazis had the sense to issue everyone "papers." Americans don't have "papers." What the does the Arizona Legislature think people are going to produce when the cops ask them for papers? Letters of transit?

"Rick, hide me, Rick, Rick"

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April 23, 2010 8:32 PM in reply to neesy08

Oh no... someone just had to mention the "holocaust"... as if we don't have enough fatigue.

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April 23, 2010 10:49 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

It's a line from Casablanca, dickhead.

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mophan

April 24, 2010 12:20 AM in reply to magurakurin

You are talking culture to the uncultured? Remember, we are the elitist. ;0)

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Max Thrax

April 23, 2010 5:05 PM

So can anyone call the cops on a white person they suspect of being illegal? If so my brown brothers.....call away.

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Walter Mitty

April 23, 2010 5:07 PM

What a pathetic coward.

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loria

April 23, 2010 5:08 PM

I heard on the Ed Show yesterday that a US citizen has already been stopped in AZ, and he wasn't carrying his birth certificate. He is a truck driver who has a commercial license and a valid ss#, but he has brown skin and had no way to prove his citizenship (silly man, traveling around the US without his birth certificate - that just never happens in this country). So, he was taken to jail and his wife had to bring his birth certficate to show he is a US citizen. Seems the police couldn't even wait to try out the new law.

It looks like AZ has stepped up to take some of the heat off of SC, which, at least for today, isn't ranked first in the nation for stupidity, bigotry and racism.

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April 23, 2010 5:18 PM in reply to loria

Good thing she didn't bring a Certificate of Live Birth by mistake. He's still be rotting in jail.

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loria

April 23, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

You are right. Not only do they have to carry their birth certificate, they have to be sure it meets Tea Party standards.

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April 23, 2010 5:21 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Good point. Will they be demanding the original long form for everyone?

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April 23, 2010 5:25 PM in reply to SchrodingersCat

If it's good enough for a black President, it's good enough for brown people, too.

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cwnidog

April 23, 2010 8:46 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Interesting thing about birth certificates, you can't really tell who they go with. I mean, suppose I had a birth certificate that actually belonged to somebody else who was roughly my age, who's to know it isn't mine if it's not backed up with a standard, government-issued photo ID?

Sounds like these goobers want to usher in National ID cards and internal passports. Why, that's just like the old Soviet Union. My god! It's suddenly become all so clear, the Arizona Republican Party is really a Communist front! How could we have been so blind?

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El Puerco

April 23, 2010 9:12 PM in reply to cwnidog

Actually, lots of European countries issue national id cards and everyone is okay with it.

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April 24, 2010 3:28 AM in reply to El Puerco

But the point is, America doesn't have a national ID card. What are people supposed to show the cops? Aside from a lot of other horrible things, this is a major practical flaw in the law. Whether or not Europeans are "okay with" id cards, or even whether or not Americans would be okay with them, is utterly irrelevant to the fact that ID cards do not exist in America.

We.don't. have. papers.

It's a dumbshit stupid law. And it probably won't last out the week after the reviews and lawsuits start to hit.

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April 23, 2010 5:43 PM in reply to loria

My New York driver's license can't satisfy this requirement. And since the AZ authorities are emphatic that racial profiling will not be used, my lily-whiteness will be no defense.

It looks like we're all going to have to bring our U.S. passports should we ever have occasion to cross into Arizona from one of the four adjoining Free States, or by domestic air travel. At this point, I wouldn't recommend it in any event.

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expat46

April 24, 2010 8:21 PM in reply to loria

Here's a link to the story about the truck driver.
http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html

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rbeats

April 23, 2010 5:08 PM

So Teabaggers protest the growth of govt and how it intrudes upon peoples freedom to live, yet they applaud this huge growth in govt power to subvert peoples freedoms?

Fuck those teabagging thugs, I'm surprise they even know which hole to shove their fast food in to keep themselves alive.

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loria

April 23, 2010 5:19 PM in reply to rbeats

They were talking about white people. They have no problem with the government infringing on the rights of those who aren't white.

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April 23, 2010 5:24 PM in reply to rbeats

Agree. 35% marginal tax rate? Government tyranny!!!!! Stopping brown people to ask for papers? Patriotism!!!!

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JoeTheMechanic

April 23, 2010 5:10 PM

I don't understand this law. If you are in the country legally, why would you have immigration papers? It seems like a law designed to harass people.

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Davran

April 23, 2010 5:23 PM in reply to JoeTheMechanic

Ya think?

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M. Digby IV

April 23, 2010 5:10 PM

Sorry for my previous post A.A. has no opinions on outside issues. I just happen to live in a somewhat liberal area, so our groups won't be going to AZ next year.

I spoke before I thought. I also in no way speak for A.A. or anyone but myself.

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PeachesNYC

April 23, 2010 6:31 PM in reply to M. Digby IV

Friend of Bill here. You're right, AA has no opinion on outside issues, but members can collectively make decisions that are right for their group as it sounds like yours has done. If there are regional or national events planned for Arizona, I hope enough local groups make the decision to stay away so that organizers decide to move those events elsewhere in order to attract the most attendees (which would then be a move not based on an "outside issue").

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Austin Democrat

April 23, 2010 5:12 PM

Just goes to show that Conservatives and Republicans actually don't know fascism when they see it.

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LisB

April 23, 2010 5:15 PM in reply to Austin Democrat

Snap! Great comment.

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April 23, 2010 5:27 PM in reply to Austin Democrat

The reason is that they see it every morning in the mirror.

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Redwood Rhiadra

April 23, 2010 5:38 PM in reply to Austin Democrat

Fascism to Republicans is like water to fish.

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LisB

April 23, 2010 5:12 PM

It will be interesting to watch the Police Reports of any and all local AZ online newspapers from now on.

*shakes head in great sadness*

I agree with mophan, up above. It is indeed a sad day for civil rights.

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April 23, 2010 5:12 PM

One of the worst aspects of this law is that it now makes hispanics easy targets for all sorts of criminal activity. They now know that many will be reluctant to call law enforcement for help due to fear of harassment.

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rbeats

April 23, 2010 5:19 PM in reply to SchrodingersCat

Good point it will increase corruption. You could fix a Hispanics car and charge them double the price of a white guy and if he/she complains you can say "wanna get the police down here to straighten things out, or you wanna pay and be on your way?"

Of course you can think of people beating up or harassing Hispanics and then say go ahead call the cops, you got your papers on you?

This whole bill is a recipe for disaster.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jKaG9lu3DaZkgjDbJEwUUdTVPoAwD9F8VB3O1

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 5:18 PM

Well, this and the case of the young man who is being tried in Tennessee for hacking into Palin's email. Kendall Coffey (prominent lawyer) said most prosecutors would never have taken this case to trial - at most a misdemeanor with a fine. But Sarah Palin's star power and an over zealous prosecutor are turning this into a federal crime. Kernell faces up to 50 years in federal prison if convicted of identity theft, mail fraud and two other felony charges. His lawyer has said the case is a prank and Kernell had no criminal intent.

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DanF

April 23, 2010 5:19 PM

Will the last hispanic GOP member please turn out the lights before they leave the party? Thank you.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 6:01 PM in reply to DanF

If I recall, Bush II came close to winning the majority of Hispanic votes cast in 2004. That will the high mark for the GOP for many generations. Democrats, on top of all the other weapons the GOP has handed them these past few years, should run with this till their throats are hoarse.

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thunderbay63

April 23, 2010 5:20 PM

When do the death camps open?

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Davran

April 23, 2010 5:24 PM in reply to thunderbay63

There's already a secret one in operation in Crawford, Texas.

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April 23, 2010 6:46 PM in reply to thunderbay63

There is probably a death camp in your basement. You sound like a serial-killer.

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mike m

April 24, 2010 6:40 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Arizona is interesting:

1. legislation against illegal immigration and against those who hire illegal immigrants (that will stop illegals from going to Arizona if they cannot get jobs and that will not violate any civil rights).

2. legislation that any candidate who wishes to be on the Arizona ballot for president must prove that he/she is eligible (natural born citizen and never had a dual citizenship ... see stipulation 8 under the code ... that is where Obama is vulnerable ... did he ever apply to college as a foreign exchange studen or have a passport as a foreigner?)

3. legislation that the healthcare "insurance" bill does not apply to citizens of Arizona under the 10th Amendment of the Constitution.

Now, you all can make fun of Arizona ... but it is clear that liberals want illegals made citizens so they get more voters ... and Arizona is about to say "fu-k you!"

As a matter of fact. 17 states have filed suit against the "insurance" bill. 3 states have passed laws that make candidates prove they are eligible to be president before they are placed on the ballot. and 2 states are passing laws to stop illegal immigrants in their states.

Now watch ... more and more states will jump on the band wagon for all 3 of these issues. And since 24% of America feel more affinity to the tea party than to Republicans or Democrats ... especially in the south ... this will only grow.

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April 25, 2010 3:24 PM in reply to mike m

Great post and you're absolutely been on point...Thanks for bringing a level head to the debate!

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MadeinAmerica

April 23, 2010 5:21 PM

Way to go, Governor! Glad to see Arizona take the bull by the horns. Illegals are just that, illegal. They have burdened America for entirely too long. If they want to be here, they can and must follow our laws to claim citizenship. Here, here!

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loria

April 23, 2010 5:28 PM in reply to MadeinAmerica

They have burdened the country for too long? Just how do you think they got those low wage jobs? An employer hired them know they were undocumented.

BTW, since you are clearly brilliant you will be able to tell us all how you can tell that someone is undocumented simply by looking at them. All Latinos have that "illegal look", right?

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April 23, 2010 6:33 PM in reply to loria

Loria, you sound like an illegal immigrant defending lawbreakers. Where are YOUR papers? I can show you mine.

Your comment doesn't sound pro-American. They sound pro-illegal.

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:08 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

NewYorkRob is claiming two contradictory things;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 7:13 PM in reply to amber

Ha! Guess what Amber! I'm hispanic too!

But he said;

NewYorkRob
user-pic

April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to jolly ranchero

I don't see any conflict. I am an American citizen. I get asked for my papers on certain occasions. So what are you talking about? It is not racially discriminatory to ask for ones papers. I'm White and I get asked many times.

which is it, do you loom "white" and get asked for your papers? .... or are you hispanic looking?

BUSTED TROLL

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loria

April 23, 2010 9:57 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You wouldn't know pro American if it slapped you in the face. Again, could you and the other bigoted trolls tell us just how you are going to reasoanbly determine who to stop and require documentation? How many Latinos are in the US legally? How many were born here and are citizens? How many have served in the military and fought for this country? Yet, you group all Latinos in one group and believe they are all here illegally and as a result should be required to prove they are legal. If you don't have a problem you are not a true American.

Reading your posts, I will take it face value that your mother is Latino. You feel safe because you are in NY and you are patting yourself on the back because you aren't here illegally. But, go to AZ and see who cares. If you look like your mother, you better be carrying your birth certificate.

Being white, blond and blue eyed, I don't have to worry about this. But, being an American who can't believe that we have just legalized bigotry and racism I am very worried about the direction this country is taking.

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jsfox

April 23, 2010 5:28 PM in reply to MadeinAmerica

I wonder if you will still be cheering when AZ goes bankrupt because of this law.

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chameleon

April 23, 2010 5:31 PM in reply to MadeinAmerica

Screw you troll. I think you're lost.

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Max Thrax

April 23, 2010 5:51 PM in reply to MadeinAmerica

The only people burdening this country are old white people. Kill em all.

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hoppycalif2

April 23, 2010 7:35 PM in reply to Max Thrax

Hey, leave me out of this! I do have a birth certificate, and a driver's license, and a passport. And, I try to avoid the sun, so I am almost never brown. And, I speak English. I should be immune, and even put on a pedestal (put a LazyBoy on there too, please.)

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Cornelius

April 23, 2010 10:08 PM in reply to hoppycalif2

Pedestal? I don't think so. Kobe coming down off his pedestal. Durant shuts 'em down! Thunder in 7! Ya baby.

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dtOZONE

April 25, 2010 3:06 PM in reply to MadeinAmerica

and even if they follow the laws, they might still be taken into custody for not proving it.

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cassady

April 23, 2010 5:21 PM

Ok, in general Nazi comparisons are way overdone in this country, and those conservatives who call Obama a fascist are ignorant people who have no idea what fascism is. So for this reason I generally don't make such comparisons myself. But in this case, I'm sorry --- how much does this bill remind you of "Jews must wear a yellow star at all times"?

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April 23, 2010 5:58 PM in reply to cassady

Goodwin's Law in action again. Well done!

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calgarr

April 23, 2010 11:58 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Doesn't change the fact that it's true.

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scelerat

April 24, 2010 12:26 AM in reply to cassady

Aww, isn't that cute? Somebody just learned about Godwin's law. Welcome to 1990, Einstein.

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Red XIV

April 24, 2010 1:07 AM in reply to cassady

Reminds me more of Cold War era Eastern Europe.

Papers, comrade?

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April 23, 2010 5:22 PM

In addition to pandering to her base for the upcoming election, the governor appears to be historically illiterate. I was watching this on CNN with closed captioning, and at one point I swear she quoted Theodore Roosevelt from his "third inaugural address."

Maybe she just misread her teleprompter, but since she's a Republican, I can't rule out stupidity on her part.

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eve cairo

April 23, 2010 5:22 PM

And can I make a citizens arrest for someone who I have a reasonable suspicion is illegal? "Halt there you Orkney Islander!"

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BronxInTN

April 23, 2010 5:22 PM

Not to worry. The AZ police will be targeting only tall, light-skinned blond-haired persons who are listening to Nashville country music stations.

There is absolutely no chance that those with average height, brown-skinned, dark-haired people who may be listening to a Spanish-speaking radio station in their cars or on the sidewalks will be targeted.

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jegan

April 23, 2010 5:24 PM

"Murderous greed of drug cartels." Translation: people with brown skin.

But for the fact that the crazy Supremes these days are dominated by the Robertses and the Scalias and the Thomases and the Alitos, this law would get struck down in a 25-words-or-less Per Curiam opinion. But today? Not so sure.

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skitzo

April 23, 2010 8:04 PM in reply to jegan

Not on equal protection grounds, but on Commerce Clause and Supremacy Clause grounds. States cannot regulate interstate or foreign commerce.

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Libertine

April 23, 2010 5:24 PM

From the minds of demented birthers, the ones demanding to see Obama's birth certificate to 'prove' he was born here, we now get a law which gives the police the authority to stop all Latino-Americans and make them prove, on the spot, that they are actually citizens. And if they are not carrying their birth certificate, or proof of citizenship, at all times they will go to jail, and assumed to be guilty until proven innocent, until they can produce it.

This country is getting more fucked up by the day...

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thunderbay63

April 23, 2010 5:27 PM

Of course, the bill leaves the term "reasonable suspicion" undefined.

The bill is so vague and self contradictory that it's virtually impossible for police to know how to enforce it.

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April 23, 2010 5:36 PM in reply to thunderbay63

They couldn't very well define it as "Latino-looking". They don't need to. I'm pretty sure everyone involved knows EXACTLY what this bill means and how it's supposed to be enforced.

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April 23, 2010 9:50 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

No I don't EXACTLY know. I'm sure you'll give us your bigoted point of view about what this bill means.

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bobosqueakers

April 23, 2010 5:27 PM

I'm going to unfriend this state....

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Hank

April 23, 2010 5:27 PM

Well I think from the point of view of a Democrat and a Liberal, this is a good thing. There are an awful lot of Hispanics in Arizona that can vote, and I am guessing they are not going to be happy with Republicans. I am also guessing that anger will spill over into New Mexico and California and maybe even Texas...

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loria

April 23, 2010 5:33 PM in reply to Hank

Once again you have to ask the question. Just what does the Republican party have to offer anyone of color? Why would any minority want to be part of their tiny little tent?

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April 23, 2010 8:44 PM in reply to loria

I believe Michael Steele already answered that question, and th answer is: Nada.

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baba2nde

April 23, 2010 5:28 PM

"Reasonable suspicion" translates to blanket authorization. That means bigger, meaner government, not small government. I look forward to seeing Tea Partiers out in force protesting.

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Austin Democrat

April 23, 2010 5:28 PM

I just read through the link TPM provided for the legislation and it has this provision: 5.)Allows a law enforcement officer, without a warrant, to arrest a person if the officer has probable cause to believe that the person has committed any public offense that makes the person removable from the U.S.

Am I naive or is that something police shouldn't be allowed to do?

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tommyudo

April 23, 2010 5:29 PM

The Latino birth rate in Arizona is higher than any other group. Combine that with the retired white population , all soon to die off, and the teabaggers and other assorted bigots have dug themselves into a demographic hole. Lawsuits will stop this bill in its tracks, before it does any major damage. The good news today is that the GOP has just lost even more Latino votes today when that bill was signed by that withered hag.

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amber

April 23, 2010 10:43 PM in reply to tommyudo

You're absolutely right. The extreme right wingers are digging quite a hole, and I can't wait to watch them fall in closer to satan where they belong.

And Newyorkl you are revealing yourself as being quite intolerant. Spit on any black congressmen or make death threats against any Democrats lately?

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inniss326

April 23, 2010 5:30 PM

This is typical small government GOP. With all of local AZ law enforcement cutting budgets they enact a unfunded mandate.

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bogglesthemind

April 23, 2010 5:31 PM

All people of latino origin should leave Arizona. Boycott Arizona. Cut off their labor supply. Then watch what happens.

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riceroni

April 23, 2010 5:35 PM in reply to bogglesthemind

All people of every other ethnicity should boycott as well. I'm White and I won't spend another red cent there until this bullshit is repealed.

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April 23, 2010 7:02 PM in reply to riceroni

You aren't white. Please don't troll a legitimate discussion with your nonsense.

Everyone is blaming Arizona. No one mentions the reality of unauthorized border crossing by those who want to circumvent legal entry.

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:13 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Funny you claimed to be both white and latino above, which is it?

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chameleon

April 24, 2010 10:06 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

How the hell do you know what color Faux News is and why does it matter to you what "color" a person is.

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Jeff Boatright

April 23, 2010 5:32 PM

Now what is REALLY gonna be kewl is when some south Florida anti-Castro uber-conservitard wacko of Cuban descent gets stopped in AZ without papers. Karma earned.

BTW, the real killer in this law is that anyone can sue any AZ municipality for not fully enforcing this law.

Hm.

I wonder if the phones are wringing off the hooks in all those law offices that advertise on the TV soaps...

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riceroni

April 23, 2010 5:33 PM

That's republican's for'ya! They're backwards and regressive and want to turn back time on everything from civil rights to technology. It must be some republican strategy to keep dumping senseless bullshit on the President's plate for him to keep scraping into the garbage.

*NOTE TO REPUBLICANS*

When you pass irresponsible bullshit racist legislation like this, this is the reason you'll never have back "state's rights" like you want it during pre-civil war time.

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April 23, 2010 8:50 PM in reply to riceroni

You're the reason I hate "DEMOCRACY", 51 votes illegals are citizens and the BORDERS ARE STILL NOT SECURED!

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Max Thrax

April 23, 2010 5:34 PM

I'm really asking: does the person have to be brown skinned? Can anyone call the cops on the old white lady down the street and say they suspect them of being illegal.

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April 23, 2010 5:42 PM in reply to Max Thrax

Sure. They can call. The answer will be [click].

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Max Thrax

April 23, 2010 5:56 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Not if they just give an address. Are you required to report the color of skin? Seriously, every Hispanic in the state should just simply start calling in their white neighbors, if nothing else, it gums up the system.

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April 23, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to Max Thrax

I doubt very much that it's going to work that way. And with 30% of the population Latino, they can't very well go around asking them all for their papers. More likely the cops will use it to keep Latinos "in line". It's a harassment tool.

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bvd

April 23, 2010 5:59 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

Not if you say she has an Obama bumper sticker.

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April 23, 2010 5:36 PM

Good now Arizona can deal with the illegal Canadian immigrant problem.

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April 23, 2010 5:37 PM

Canadian are always crossing our unprotected borders using our resources.

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Debra

April 23, 2010 5:37 PM

Let the lawsuits begin.

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April 23, 2010 5:39 PM

Canadians are always drinking beer, laughing, sometimes they don't even speak english. I hope they allow all the cops on the northern border to do this.

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John M

April 23, 2010 7:14 PM in reply to Ironcomments

Nous parlons pas anglais?

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April 23, 2010 7:49 PM in reply to John M

Real Canadiens ne sont pas.

haha.

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cwnidog

April 23, 2010 8:58 PM in reply to John M

Isn't there supposed to be a "ne" in there somewhere?

I think you just proved you're Canadian :-)

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Scyth

April 23, 2010 5:41 PM

Cue the ACLU and the Temporary injunction. A law student knows this is unconstitutional.

oh yeah, a cue the AZ travel boycott.

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April 23, 2010 6:05 PM in reply to Scyth

We citizens of the Free States will need a U.S. passport to get in there anyway.

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Chickenbone Bill

April 23, 2010 5:43 PM

If you liked Germany in the early 1930's, you'll love Arizona in 2010!

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April 23, 2010 5:59 PM in reply to Chickenbone Bill

Goodwin's Law in action again! Well done!

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Boidster

April 23, 2010 7:33 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Sorry, who is "Goodwin"? And what does he/she have to do with the fascist aspect of this law?

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http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Godwin%27s_Law

April 23, 2010 7:52 PM in reply to Boidster

"As a thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

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Boidster

April 23, 2010 8:07 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Oh, you meant GODWIN. Sorry, you kept saying "Goodwin" and I thought maybe he was some other racist blowhard that you identified with.

As regards Godwin, fascism is as fascism does.

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:18 PM in reply to Boidster

Godwins Law doesn't apply when the right wing actually enacts statutes which mimic the third reichs statues against people they both do not like. It isn't any allegorical comparison when they actually do it.

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tiowally

April 24, 2010 1:40 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

It's Godwin, dipshit, not Goodwin.

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tiowally

April 24, 2010 2:20 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

It's Godwin, dipshit, not Goodwin.

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miles born

April 23, 2010 5:45 PM

Will a drivers license be enough or will we have to have a passport to visit Arizona? Boy, they really screwed up this time. Effing tards!

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April 23, 2010 6:15 PM in reply to miles born

Somebody needs to get on the horn with a sufficiently sympathetic corporate law firm, and urge that they issue a legal advisory to their client base strongly recommending international passports for all travel within or through Arizona.

This will get a much quicker reaction than any ACLU lawsuit.

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Debra

April 23, 2010 5:47 PM

So much for the party for liberty and individual freedoms...I guess that just applies if you are white.

Hypocrites.

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Cincinnatus

April 23, 2010 5:48 PM

Instead of setting his staff to wasting time examining whether or not the law is legal (something that is, after all, solely the prerogative of the courts), Obama would better spend his time with Federal enforcement actions of existing laws that would obviate the need for actions by individual states.

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jsfox

April 23, 2010 6:04 PM in reply to Cincinnatus

I wouldn't worry about Obama wasting time on this he won't have to. The first of many law suits is probably already being filed. AZ will soon be bankrupt under the weight of defending this law.

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Backcountry

April 23, 2010 5:50 PM

Actually, this may prove to be a good thing. It shows what the Rethuglicans are really all about.

Want to see what America would look like if the Rethugs got their way -- let's look at Arizona where police hit you up for papers, and throw lawful Americans and illegals alike behind bars if things don't seem to be "in order."

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Prudy

April 23, 2010 5:52 PM

Arizona: The new police state for Hispanic-looking Americans.

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Debster

April 23, 2010 5:53 PM

Gotta love those Arizona Repukes. They just handed over elected offices to Democrats for at least a generation.

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April 23, 2010 6:40 PM in reply to Debster

Not if they ring the polling places with state police.

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EdTheRed

April 23, 2010 5:54 PM

"What's a smiling face when the whole state's racist?" -Chuck D, 1991

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Viva!America!

April 23, 2010 5:55 PM

If only Native Americans had thought of this first when the first immigrants came to this country.

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April 23, 2010 5:55 PM

This is really great news. It's actually a no-brainer... enforcement of the laws already on the books. The US must not be the dumping ground for third-worlders that only bring their problems with them.

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April 23, 2010 6:35 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Welcome to the dump. The unwashed masses have been piling in for some 500 years. The following attendant factors have been consistent throughout:

1. The destruction of the native population
2. The expansion of opportunities for both economic growth and cultural exchange
3. The hostility of the incumbent "natives" to the "newcomers" (with the most militant xenophobes often drawing their numbers from the next-most-recent wave of immigrants)

This is the milieu that made us "first world." #1 has pretty much run its course. Even as folks like you continue to hold up #3, it's reassuring to know that #2 will continue unabated.

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Barney

April 23, 2010 5:57 PM

God Bless Jan Brewer.

..what the hell is controversial about enforcing laws that the feds won't??

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April 23, 2010 5:58 PM

From the bill:

Specifies that a person is presumed to be lawfully present if the person provides any of the following:

A valid Arizona driver license.
A valid Arizona nonoperating identification license.
A valid tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification.
A valid federal, state or local government issued identification, if the issuing entity requires proof of legal presence before issuance.

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DanF

April 23, 2010 6:03 PM in reply to NotBornEveryMinute

So you're good with going to jail if you forget your wallet at home? And believe it or not, many people, especially poor people, don't have any of these.

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Rav0506

April 23, 2010 6:04 PM in reply to NotBornEveryMinute

Sounds good to me, what's the problem?

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bvd

April 23, 2010 6:09 PM in reply to Rav0506

The problem is to get that information police will routinely stop American citizens to make them prove their Americans. IN a state where a third of the people are hispanic it means a third of the people are subject to being routinely stopped for no reason other than their skin color.

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April 23, 2010 6:17 PM in reply to Rav0506

The problem? What do you think the chances are that you'll be asked for any of these things if you're white? Pretty near zero, I'd say. The 30% of the population that is Latino will comprise 99% of the people who are required to produce these items. Your family might have lived in Arizona for 10 generations, but if you're brown, you'd better have your papers with you. It's inherently discriminatory. It can't possibly be applied "without regard to skin color, accent or social status", in Brewer's words.

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April 23, 2010 6:46 PM in reply to mans_best_friend

I'm not comfortable with the encouragement law enforcement gets in this law to possibly abuse their authority and violate people's civil rights. (News flash - this will not be entirely new behavior.) But there are many other things in the law that would appear to be much more effective at reducing illegal immigration, for example, requiring investigation of the status of people arrested for other crimes, and requirements on employers to confirm the status of their employees.

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jsfox

April 23, 2010 8:00 PM in reply to Rav0506

Your papers please ring any bells? Followed by: why did you stop me? Followed by: because I can.

The law suits are going to bankrupt the state. This is going to be jobs for attorneys. And f the Latino community has any sense they will hold a general strike just to show what the eco omy i s like without their input.

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April 23, 2010 6:47 PM in reply to NotBornEveryMinute

The only "federal, state or local government issued identification" that Arizona is bound to reliably honor with respect to "the issuing entity requiring proof of legal presence before issuance" is a U.S. passport.

For that matter, what of legal visitors using foreign passports? Are Arizona police suddenly competent to validate passports and check visa status? Are they going to get consular training from the State Department?

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April 23, 2010 6:00 PM

This is so obviously racially motived it is sickening. Just as many drugs and illegals cross the northern border. Hell, most terrorist infiltrated the U.S. through the northern border.

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NobleCommentDecider

April 23, 2010 6:01 PM

The first person arrested under the bill was a white male nitwit who was shouting at Latino demonstrators at the state capitol to 'leave the country' among other threats,-just came over a Phoenix TV report.

No the deluge of Bush Base bigots and right-wing nuts will flood the poo-leece with calls about illegals cutting their neighbors grass.

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kunda311

April 23, 2010 6:10 PM

By all means, right-wing white people, antagonize every other group in the nation - blacks, Hispanics, gays, Jews, etc. - by pretending that your rights matter more. By all means, winger whites, become very fearful and paranoid and panicky, and please do so as your numbers dwindle and you become a minority. As you edge closer to the place where it all began, where you are displaced from "your lands" (the ones you stole from other races) and you get a bitter taste of your own medicine, you'll remember what it's like to be a minority and you will piss and moan. But by then, no one will care.

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Isepick

April 23, 2010 6:15 PM

Repeal and Replace!....actually just repeal will work. By the way, it isn't just Frau Brewer that people should be upset with, but everyone in the AZ legislature that actually voted yes on this thing.

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we r all husseins

April 23, 2010 6:15 PM

In a true story, every summer the sun darkens my skin to the point where strangers greet me in Spanish. I'm not going anywhere near Arizona. Oh, and I don't have my birth certificate handy either.

"We must prove the alarmists and the cynics wrong," she said.

Doesn't this prover Arizona Republicans are the alarmists and cynics?

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JefferyK

April 23, 2010 6:50 PM in reply to we r all husseins

And there are white-skinned Mexicans.

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JefferyK

April 23, 2010 6:16 PM

A general strike by Hispanics would literally starve America.

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April 23, 2010 7:14 PM in reply to JefferyK

Is that because of your prejudice? Do you believe that hispanics are superior and America needs hispanics?

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April 23, 2010 8:49 PM in reply to JefferyK

JeffreyK,

[i]"A general strike by Hispanics would literally starve America."[/i]

Oh sure. Who would possible deliver the pizza? Or rake the lawn? Or pick the lettuce at $50.00 an hour?

What would we do without illegal immigrants? The question should be what would illegal immigrants do without American jobs?

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laborlawyer

April 23, 2010 6:29 PM

As an attorney, I would like someone who favors the law to define what would constitute "reasonable suspicion" that someone is in the country illegally, absent any reference to race, skin color, or accent. Seriously- I cannot for the life of me figure out a lawful definition.

What is going on in Arizona? It is truly scary. Talk about out of control big government!

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April 23, 2010 6:35 PM in reply to laborlawyer

I don't see a problem with "reasonable suspicion". Suppose an individual does not have a driver's license or any type of ID when stopped for an infraction?

What would you think? I'd be suspicious.

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April 23, 2010 6:47 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Suppose your friend just bought a new car, he comes by un-announced and says hey check out my ride. You see the bad-ass car and jump in with him to go for a quick spin around the block. However you forget your wallet or any form of i.d. You and your friend who drive just a few blocks are stopped by a cop for not having a license plate. Your buddy has his stuff but you don't. Should you go to jail for that? Now imagine if you are non-white and this happens.

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April 23, 2010 7:17 PM in reply to Ironcomments

If I forget my wallet I can still provide proof of citizenship with a SS-# or I can have my wallet and ID brought with one phone call. That would prove my citizenship.

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April 23, 2010 7:21 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

And the cops says that is not good enough I need papers. Off to jail you go.

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:27 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You claimed to be both "white" and "hispanic" earlier in the thread, which is it?

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April 23, 2010 8:41 PM in reply to clif

Try using some intelligence here. One can be both White and Hispanic/Latino. There are some Latinos that are Whiter than Europeans! And have blond hair! So off to bed with your bigoted prejudices.

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Davran

April 23, 2010 6:52 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I went out for a walk this morning, and I did not carry my driver's license because I was not driving my car.

I went out for a run this morning, and I did not carry my driver's license because I wasn't driving, and I didn't have any pockets.

I hope the police pick you up the next time you step outside without identification. Might be best if you just let the government tattoo your ID number on the back of your neck.

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April 23, 2010 7:34 PM in reply to Davran

This is something I think that this gentlemen doesn't understand. Now, I'm certain that either NY will say I'm "playing the race card" or just say that the incident I am about to relate is nothing more than I deserved but I'll relate it anyway.

When I was a girl, I had a paper route. Now, we integrated the neighborhood I grew up in. We were the first black family to move there and by the time I was 15, in my part of the neighborhood (the part where it was all upper-middle class single-family homes and not apartments) we were one of three black families within a square mile. One morning, during the Winter, I was loading my bags onto my bicycle and one of Sacramento's finest rolled by. He stopped at the stop sign (we lived on the corner) and saw me. He then puts his spot on me, tells me to approach and then steps toward the rear of his car. By this time he has his weapon out of its holster and pointed at me! He asked me "what are you doing in this neighborhood" and I told him I was doing my paper route. He asked me "where do you live" and I said "here". He then asked if I had an ID. I told him I had a bus pass, a student ID and a library card all of which were upstairs. He then asked if I had a key. I told him I did. I reached VERY SLOWLY into the pocket of my coat and produced my keyring. He then asked "does it fit that door".

Now, at this point I did one of the dumber things I've EVER done. I got mad. No, I got indignant. I said "yes, officer. Would you like me to go and get my father and you can see if his key fits his door? No, let's wake him up and we can go to Judge So-and-So's house (a friend of my father was a superior court judge) and we can see if HIS key fits HIS door". At that point, the officer's career flashed before his eyes, I believe and he made up a story about how there and been a string of robberies on our block and he was just being cautious. The thing is, my parents were captains of the neighborhood watch. There hadn't been any burglaries within three blocks of our house in more than two years!

Almost everything I needed to know about racial profiling I learned on that cold December morning. That was more than a quarter-century ago and the memory still makes me quake with fear and anger.

Now, perhaps NY guy thinks that this was just the way of the world and, perhaps, nothing more than a 15 year old black girl deserved. But to me, that was just another hint that I was going to be treated differently because of my skin color. However, that incident did show me why my parents would role-play with us what to do when (those were their words) we were stopped by the cops. They taught us to stay calm, cool and collected because our very *lives* depended upon it. Racial profiling sounds, on the surface, like no big deal--until you are a 15 year old girl, staring down the barrel of a gun, held by a man authorized to use deadly force, when you are doing something so quintessentially American (at least at the time) as preparing to do a paper route.

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April 23, 2010 8:20 PM in reply to ladyfractal

The bill doesn't mention race. It mentions 'illegal immigrants' and 'immigration status'. You are the one making this a "race" issue with your long-winded story.

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cwnidog

April 23, 2010 9:17 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

The bill doesn't mention race.

Neither did the laws that required literacy tests for voting. Guess who got failed regardless of reading ability. It sure wasn't illiterate crackers.

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April 23, 2010 9:25 PM in reply to cwnidog

What's a "cracker" you bigot? If one can't read the voting forms how can one expect one to make the right choice?

And I don't think that really happened. I think you made that story up.

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Red XIV

April 24, 2010 1:12 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

"Cracker" means white people.

Literacy tests had nothing to do with actual literacy. Their sole reason for existence was to prevent blacks from voting. It wouldn't matter if a black man taking the test had a Ph.D in English, the people administering the test would still fail him. And it wouldn't matter if a white man were completely illiterate, the test administrators would still pass him. Then "help" him with the ballot, most likely.

Nothing in the laws establishing these tests mentioned race at all. It's the way they were administered (and intended to be administered) that made them racist. And that's why the Supreme Court has banned literacy tests for voting.

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laborlawyer

April 23, 2010 7:23 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Suspicious of what? Again, take race and accent out of the picture. How would not having identification, on its' own, raise a "reasonable suspicion" that the person is not in the country legally?

I recently was stopped because I did not have a current license tag (it apparently fell off). I had my license, but could not find a current registration. The police officer did a computer search, saw my car was in the computer system with a current registration, and let me go with a warning. But then I'm a 54 year old white guy. Imagine the same facts with a 30 year old latino. Now imagine that latino has heavily accented English. Reasonable suspicion? Why? At what point?

Again- what's the legal deinition?

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Boidster

April 23, 2010 8:03 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I don't see a problem with "reasonable suspicion". Suppose an individual does not have a driver's license or any type of ID when stopped for an infraction?

Er, in that case the person is exercising a privilege, granted by the state, which requires an operator's license to be in his/her possession. By the time the person has been pulled over, a requirement to produce a valid operator's license has already been established.

This law allows an officer to demand ID at any time.

Here's a relatively simple question: should a police officer be able to stop you (I mean YOU, personally) while you are walking your dog and demand that you prove you are a citizen or other legal resident?

If your answer is 'yes', then the protections granted by the US Constitution are, in your view, considerably weaker than in mine.

Most people will qualify their "Yes" with "...if he has reason to". I maintain that that type of qualification is immaterial to the essential weakening of Constitutional protections, but go ahead and name one such reason. A specific one. You're out walking your dog, but if you do X, then the officer is justified in stopping you from walking and demanding proof of legal residency. Just what, exactly, is an example of X?

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ru4862

April 23, 2010 6:37 PM

this yet another issue the ReUglicans failed to address when they had their opportunity. Once again the responsibility falls on president Obama's shoulders. ReUglicans are a waist of skin with no purpose for life. It's a sad day in America.

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RKT

April 23, 2010 7:02 PM

"We must enforce the law evenly and without regard to skin color, accent or social status," she said, adding that the bill's opponents are "over-reacting."

Yes, there are a lot of undocumented Lithuanians in Arizona.

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April 23, 2010 7:11 PM

Pro's Ranch Markets fires 300 illegal workers after ICE audit
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/business/articles/2010/04/23/20100423biz-ranch0423.html

I wonder if these workers filed State Income Taxes?
State income taxes that support important programs to help the people of Arizona, or did these illegal freeloaders come here and take away jobs and income from American or Arizona citizens who can no longer pay income taxes and instead must rely on the State to provide welfare. Welfare paid for by State Taxes, that the illegal didn’t pay.

Whatever little tax the illegal immigrant paid in sales tax or they’re employers who pocketed the differences in workers comp or withholding or premiums for healthcare; that a legal employer MUST pay.

So when the employer of illegal immigrants bids jobs, he automatically has an advantage.
So does the illegal immigrant have an advantage, he’ll work cheaper, even if he gets nearly the same pay, except he won’t pay the tax.

An illegal immigrant willing to work under the table, to avoid discovery and to avoid paying taxes, makes a perfect combination for an employer who pays very little, doesn’t have to pay a living wage to a legal Arizona worker.

A greedy employer and greedy immigrant, who when they need medical attention, doesn’t mind going to the emergency room and leaving the unemployed legal Arizonan to pick up the tab.

An Arizona worker unemployed because; the immigrant cut the Arizonans throat and took his job, because the immigrant worker will gladly accept substandard wages, because it’s better than he had back home.

GO AHEAD BOYCOTT ARIZONA,
Boycotts can work both ways.

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April 23, 2010 7:30 PM in reply to Resistance

Funny how you just blow over the fact that these were people who were fired from a job yet you call them freeloaders. Does hatred really blind you this much?

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April 23, 2010 7:53 PM in reply to Ironcomments

I guess it shows where your loyalties lie. Go back to Mexico

Did it bother you that these jobs were held by illegals, and that legal residents were on welfare, because employment was denied them.

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April 23, 2010 8:12 PM in reply to Resistance

So you are saying those jobs just suddenly appeared when the illegal crossed the border and that the legal and illegal persons were fighting over the same job at the same time? Or just because the illegal wold rather work for less than go on welfare, is that what bothers you?

BTW I was born and raised in the U.S. and served my country honorably for over 8 years, what have you done to serve your beloved country?

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labman57

April 23, 2010 7:14 PM

Gotta love the right wing hypocrisy.
The same folks who have been decrying their freedoms being infringed upon by health care reform are now applauding this inane requirement to carry your “papers” with you whenever you walk down the street in Arizona, for fear that you will be imprisoned if you cannot verify your citizenship on the spot.

Never really had a good reason to visit Arizona. Now we have an excellent reason to avoid it.

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April 23, 2010 7:33 PM in reply to labman57

Do you think Arizona would suffer because you should "avoid" it? Please. Arizona would be grateful not to have those who support illegal activity from visiting. Just keep going further south. Have a nice trip.

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John M

April 23, 2010 7:40 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

That means those avoiding Arizona will be the majority of Americans and Canadians who have a real sense of liberty and freedom, as opposed to the pseudo "liberty and freedom" that "Real American" Republican, Conservative, and Tea Bagger sheep mimic by rote.

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April 24, 2010 2:23 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

So walking down the street without "papers" is properly illegal in your book?

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tropicgirl

April 23, 2010 7:30 PM

I would like to pose a question that has been bothering me since this legislation has been enacted today.

Regarding profiling. It does not seem wrong in itself to me. Doesn't the harm come when the profiled are falsely accused or inconvenienced in some way, when they are innocent?

I really do not know the answer to this myself. Wondering what others think.

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April 23, 2010 7:37 PM in reply to tropicgirl

I would evaluate that question when considering how the FBI profiles serial killers as typically "White" males.

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April 23, 2010 7:38 PM in reply to tropicgirl

Trying living a life were every-time you are seen by a cop you will automatically be teated as a suspect. Now imagine you are walking down the street minding your own business a cop sees you and you happen to be a non-white, he asked to see your id you do and comply in the most genial way and you go along your way. Then you walk a few more blocks another cops stops you and ask you the same thing and so on and so on. How do you think that will start to play on a person's psyche. People who don't have problem with profiling are usually the ones not being profiled.

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April 23, 2010 7:51 PM in reply to tropicgirl

Please read my post where I relate an incident of racial profiling. If you have questions after that, I'll answer them.

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Boidster

April 23, 2010 8:19 PM in reply to tropicgirl

I understand your uncertainty, tropicgirl. I think that in the course of criminal investigation it's reasonable for law enforcement to gather all they know about likely suspects - to profile them - to help focus investigative efforts where they are most likely to bear fruit.

The problem is when action is taken against people so profiled, without any actual evidence beyond "he/she fits the profile".

In other words, the profile itself cannot stand in for reasonable suspicion. It is a filtering and focusing tool, at best. One of the problems with the AZ law, IMO, is that it at least catalyzes, if not directly encourages, the forming of profiles to be used as reasonable suspicion to demand proof of legal residency. For really, what else besides the profile of a "likely illegal immigrant" will actually be used to demand papers of someone on the street?

As I mentioned upthread, what other thing can anybody name that would lead to "reasonable suspicion", besides perhaps "swimming across the Rio Grande"? What you wear? How you walk? What music you listen to? None of these are evidence of any crime whatsoever! They might very well be part of some cop's profile, but they're not valid as reasonable suspicion.

I doubt the cops will see it that way, though...

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http://www.dhs.gov/files/programs/gc_1200062053842.shtm

April 23, 2010 7:38 PM

The real objective of the Feds inaction and how Arizona became the pawn in the scheme

The 9/11 Commission recommended that the U.S. improve its system for issuing identification documents, urging the federal government to set standards for the issuance of sources of identification. In 2005, Congress passed a law implementing the Commission’s recommendations – a law that included several provisions of the Drivers' License Compact, a voluntary state standard endorsed by more than 45 states.

Key measures that increase the level of assurance for a document include the following:

information and security features that must be incorporated into each card
documentation and verification of an applicant’s identity, date of birth, social security number, and legal presence in the United States
checks to ensure that an individual does not hold multiple driver’s licenses in other states, and
minimum security standards for issuance of licenses and identification cards

The Fed allowed the illegal immigrant to become a festering issue.
Now because of complaints about racial profiling, the Fed will now announce All CITIZENS MUST PROVIDE PROOF.

Thanks a lot illegal’s, and they’re supporters, you just gave our Government the excuse it has sought for years, to establish a National identification system.

How to avoid a racial profiling charges?
Make every one provide proof.
The Hispanic population just gave BIG BROTHER A REASON TO CHECK EVERYONE, and the courts will agree that it is NOT racial profiling, it is equal treatment under the law.

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gonzo

April 23, 2010 10:18 PM in reply to Resistance

Fuck off troll. Go join the circle jerk with the other freepers.

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WaitWut?

April 23, 2010 7:46 PM

Some fun news. The hubby just called and said they were talking about this on the radio. Apparently, the Sedona Chamber of Commerce has been flooded with calls cancelling tours, etc. I heard earlier today that corporations started cancelling conventions in Phoenix and Flagstaff, yesterday.

All Arizona has is tourism. Or...had.

Frau Brewer has just turned a lot of brown eyes "blue". Don't screw this up, Dems.

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mophan

April 23, 2010 9:25 PM in reply to WaitWut?

It needs to continue. Thank you for the information.

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John

April 23, 2010 7:46 PM

Yawn. I just don't understand what all the fuss is about. I've live and traveled all over the world. In some countries you almost need to carry around a file cabinet. It's second nature for me to carry around documentation and be ready to show it whenever asked. Guess it might seem Draconian to those unaccustomed to it, but it's really no different than requiring proof of auto insurance or anything else. The USA is perhaps the ONLY country where you can walk around without any proof of residency. Pretty amazing really.

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NobleCommentDecider

April 23, 2010 7:48 PM

THIS BILL IS A JOBS PROGRAM FOR LAWYERS, and the state will pay big time when some stupid cop, like the one that arrested Prof. Gates in Boston, arrests a Latino citizen who pissed off the cop but is legal.

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skeptical brotha

April 23, 2010 7:49 PM

It is clear that the 2010 Republican Party platform is: "promise them the moon and holler wetback." You can't pander to xenophobia and racism and claim the moral high ground. Jan Brewer can kiss my black arse.

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grinninglibber

April 23, 2010 7:52 PM

The GOP must have a death wish. Historicaly AZ Hispanics have voted both Dem and GOP. NO more. 29% of of AZ voters are Hispanic - and all Dem voters now.

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April 23, 2010 8:00 PM in reply to grinninglibber

You make an interesting point. Many unauthorized immigrants actually vote! That is another problem of unchecked immigration!

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skeptical brotha

April 23, 2010 8:17 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

You make an unsubstantiated claim. Undocumented people don't vote in significant numbers, but you'd know that if you actually watched a real news channel and not Fox propaganda.

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April 23, 2010 8:28 PM in reply to skeptical brotha

I'm sorry. I disagree. Illegal alien voter recruitment was and is a big issue, especially with Democrats. This is the Democrats’ dream, so they are trying very hard to collectivize the Hispanic community by turning the immigration issue into another civil rights issue.

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:36 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Got any actual proof, or just more spin?

Cause your statement isn't supported by the numerous investigations the GOPers have launched the last decade searching for such voter fraud.

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LinusToo

April 23, 2010 9:04 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I'm sorry, but "disagreeing" is not an option here. Whether or not undocumented immigrants vote in significant numbers and whether or not Democrats engage in "[i]llegal alien voter recruitment" are empirical facts not subject to differences of opinion. You have no facts to support your assertion because your assertion is contrary to the facts.

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April 23, 2010 8:47 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Actually your claim has zero evidence to support it. However, the police harassing citizens of latino descent because of a right-wing GOP law will certainly push them towards the Democratic liberal position which the Constitution was founded on, like the 4th amendment.

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MzTicketyBoo

April 23, 2010 8:27 PM

I'm pissed about the AZ immigration law. Where's the outrage from the poplace? Take a lesson from the tea-baggers: let your freak-flag fly to the MSM til your message is heard. Don't try to finesse the point - make it plain.

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April 23, 2010 8:38 PM

What's wrong with you Democratic-Socialists...err Democrats the illegal alien can just use his copy of his utility bill to prove his citizenship...you know the copy he used to register to vote and vote with ...OOPS the illegal in Arizona can no longer register to vote in Arizona with just a copy of their utility bill, they need PHOTO ID.

NOT TO WORRY SOCIALISTS MOST OF THE OTHER STATES LET ILLEGALS VOTE!

No wonder Democrats are as mad Rosie O'Donell when the Home Town Buffet runs out of meatloaf...

...without the illegal alien vote Democrats will have less of an advantage at the voting booth and that my progressive friends is the real issue, making sure these undocumented democrats become loyal democratic-socialists and vote to keep this nation a democratic-socialist state run by Obama and his GANG OF THUGS.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 8:45 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Apparently you've never registered to vote, Dug.

Why are you so stupid? Serious question.

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April 23, 2010 8:52 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Why are so.............predictable?

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:12 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Because, you are so stupid. I find it hard to believe. Fess up, it's an act. Otherwise, how do you get through your day? I'd think you'd be walking into walls fairly often as their solidity would mean nothing to you.

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April 23, 2010 8:46 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

You are a pathetic troll. Go back upstairs, I think your Mom is calling you to dinner.

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April 23, 2010 9:02 PM in reply to commie atheist

Rachel Maddow just can on...you don't want to miss her seditionist act, do you?

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LisB

April 23, 2010 8:48 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Leave it to you to leave such a stupid comment here. Civil rights apparently mean nothing to you....then again, I've yet to see you have any civil discourse, so....yeah, it fits.

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April 23, 2010 8:55 PM in reply to LisB

What is the constitutional definition of "Invasion"...., you see Missy its about Invasion, death and destruction of Americans and their RIGHTS! NOT THE INVADERS...GET IT!

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CVille Dem

April 23, 2010 9:04 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

I'll bite: Is there a "Constitutional Definition of Invasion?" Or are you pulling this out of your ass like everything else you say?

I think you want a presumed utopia that depends on average and lower class white people who are servants of the 1% of white people who have 99% of the wealth. I hope you get it -- on Mars, or if you can somehow make yourselves all disappear in a puff of smoke via the RAPTURE -- good riddance! If only the rapture would actually happen, every nation on Earth would be better than it is now! Please go.

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April 23, 2010 9:12 PM in reply to CVille Dem

Answer the question....

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April 24, 2010 3:05 AM in reply to CVille Dem

Is there a "Constitutional Definition of Invasion?"

Of course not, the Constitution is not a dictionary!

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sophie

April 25, 2010 3:14 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Lose the "missy," asshole.

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April 25, 2010 3:37 PM in reply to sophie

No, numb nutts I won't...fascist!

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April 23, 2010 8:58 PM in reply to LisB

Civil rights does not mean international rights! Civil rights in America applies to Americans. The term "civil" is defined as:

"of, pertaining to, or consisting of citizens: civil life; civil society; of the commonwealth or state: civil affairs, befitting a citizen."

Illegal immigrants or unauthorized immigrants are NOT citizens. That is the distinction. There is a lawful mechanism to apply for legal citizenship. Come in through the front door, not under the fence or over the fence. That is like breaking in.

Thank you.

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LisB

April 23, 2010 9:12 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Again, you are missing the point. As we've all been stating over and over to your obtuse self, this new law will hurt true American citizens in AZ who "look the part". You yourself claim to be Latino (then again, you also said you're white, so....you leave us a tad bit confused, not that you care). So how'd you like to visit AZ without your birth certificate or driver's license? How'd that make you feel if you got looked at by the cops as a possible illegal?

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cwnidog

April 23, 2010 9:33 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Civil rights does not mean international rights! Civil rights in America applies to Americans.

Just. Plain. Bullshit.

From the Fourteenth Amendment (read the italicized part slowly, until it finally sinks in):

Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law.

I don't really care what dictionary you pulled that definition of "civil" out of, you're flat out wrong. You don't need to be a citizen to have civil rights in the US, just human.

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April 23, 2010 10:55 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

fuck off troll

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clif

April 23, 2010 8:54 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Got any actual proof, or just more spin?

Cause your statement isn't supported by the numerous investigations the GOPers have launched the last decade searching for such voter fraud.

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April 23, 2010 8:59 PM in reply to clif

Are you kidding? I have laid down tons of proof here at TPM but you progressive seditionist care not about objective proof...just feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelings.

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clif

April 23, 2010 9:02 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Got any actual proof, or just more spin?

Cause your statement isn't supported by the numerous investigations the GOPers have launched the last decade searching for such voter fraud.

So far you have failed to provide actual proof just more keyboard hot air.

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April 23, 2010 9:02 PM in reply to clif

Do your own research. Search "acorn + voter fraud + illegal alien recruitment"...

Your talk about "proof" but you make an unsubstantiated statement.

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clif

April 23, 2010 9:05 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

The "proof" is always on the person making such outrageous statements.

so far ya got none.

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April 23, 2010 9:09 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Francine Busby

No matter how times progressives review that video they still won't admit the truth to outsiders.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:14 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

She's right, you don't need papers to vote, and you don't need to be a registered voter to help.

You do, however need "papers" to REGISTER to vote.

You really are a moron. Is English your third or fourth language?

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April 23, 2010 9:25 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Disingenuous seditionist that's what you are...why do you hate our Constitutional Republic?

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:46 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

No, I am someone that understands basic English.

Apparently you do not.

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April 24, 2010 2:40 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Why do you hate the 4th amendment?

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April 24, 2010 6:52 AM in reply to Lestatdelc

I don't, why do you hate our national sovereignty?

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April 23, 2010 10:04 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Dug,

Thank you for that revealing video clip!!

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April 23, 2010 10:20 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

What does it reveal to you?

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gumbun

April 23, 2010 9:01 PM

Queue the forehead barcode and implants. Are extremist conservatives so hateful and unable to correlate action and consequence as to actually start a civil war?! And the barcoding is the start of Armageddon ya know, says so in Revelations!

So what will they do when the consequence eventually ends up having to be barcoded and implanted OR DEPORTED FROM AMERICA? The Bible says you can't take the "Mark of the Beast". So who's "The Beast" now? These conservative and patriotic politicians have been hijacked by their extremist egos! And they're gonna destroy the Constitution just to win this political football game of Republicans v. Democrats.

Are we REALLY this ignorant? The rest of the civilized world must be tripping on how we are reversing the clocks of intelligence and progress in this country. All because of:

F E A R !

I wonder if I should get my birth certificate tattooed on my chest. Oh wait, I'm milky white, I guess I'm safe!

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April 23, 2010 9:03 PM in reply to gumbun

What the hell are you babbling about?

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April 24, 2010 1:21 AM in reply to NewYorkRob

It's called the Bible. Have you ever read it? Do you even know it exists? Probably not, since you have more important things to do, like having a tax cut.

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April 23, 2010 9:04 PM in reply to gumbun

Hey stupid...have you ever seen a illegal coming out of the bushes 30 minutes from the border?

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gumbun

April 23, 2010 9:14 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

No, but one jumped out at me on a bike trail once. I'm sure he was illegal, he was brown. I live by the border in California. We have a few illegals here, don't we?

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:17 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Is bigfoot an illegal alien, too? Just wondering how often you've seen it. Oh, and how often HAVE you been abducted by aliens?

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April 23, 2010 9:19 PM in reply to Bwakfat

You're missing Rachel Maddow....

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:21 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

I don't watch television. That is why I know just how stupid you are.

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April 23, 2010 9:05 PM

And here is the final question. If Obama visits Arizona can he be stopped and asked to prove his citizenship?

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LisB

April 23, 2010 9:07 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Doubtful. But YOU may be.

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April 23, 2010 9:17 PM in reply to LisB

I have been asked 5 times during the last 15 years for my ID by Border Patrol Agents, I just open my mouth and start bloviating about the Constitution and they let me go!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:24 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

So you messed with the border guards and our border crossing procedure. I guess that shows how little respect you actually have for immigration.

Idiot.

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April 23, 2010 9:28 PM in reply to Bwakfat

No unitard, that's not what happened.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:36 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Do try to write coherent thoughts in English. This sputtering, blanket, non-specific denial makes you look like a lunatic.

I think I ought to report that the poster known as Dug admitted on a pblic board to messing with Border Officials, however.

This is quite serious.

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April 23, 2010 9:40 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Are you insane?

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:45 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

It is against the law to mess with the border officers, Dug.

You actually brag about it. You brag about being obnoxious to them.

That's pretty horrid behavior for a so called patriot. Shame on you!

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April 23, 2010 9:49 PM in reply to Bwakfat

You're so funny...hey do you work for ACORN?

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:00 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

You have some 'splaining to do. Why would you knowingly refuse to show Border agents your papers? Then mock them and be obnoxious? Did you think you were being clever?

Do you understand how vile you are?

Is the law too good for you? You have absolutely no standing to complain about illegal immigrants after such an idiotic display of total disregard for our laws.

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April 23, 2010 10:06 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Don't you believe in the "Living Constitution" and "Rulers Law"?

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:48 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

¿No comprende ingles, moron?

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April 23, 2010 9:47 PM in reply to LisB

And that's fine with me. I can proudly prove my citizenship and that I am an American.

Have a nice day.

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clif

April 23, 2010 9:19 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

I'd love to see some cop try it, using this racist law.

The Secret Service take their jobs very seriously.

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April 23, 2010 9:20 PM in reply to clif

What racist law? The bill doesn't mention race. It mentions immigration status! You, sir, are the racist.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:25 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Your disingenuousness is ugly.

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April 23, 2010 9:43 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Your denial is disingenuous. You just want to make this a racial issue. What about the citizens of Arizona, who are all races? Don't they deserve protection and safety? You don't think that many illegal immigrants are criminals?

You just care about illegal immigrants. You sound very anti-American.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:48 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

It is a racial issue due to the fact that the overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are of the same race, you putrid half-baked moron.

It's like saying you can make applesauce out of any fruit you like. No. You can't.

You are a liar, and the worst kind. You lie to yourself to justify your own ugly bigotry.

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April 23, 2010 9:53 PM in reply to Bwakfat

How do you know he's lying? You seem to throw "liar" around a lot to try to shutdown the debate, classic Ole Saul. He was a seditionist against our Constitution just like you!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:12 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

You like to throw sedition around a lot and it is quite obvious you have no idea what it means. I don't harass border officials. I don't care what color a persons skin is. I do car about the content of their character.

I am a law abiding citizen, and yeah, you claim to be upright, when in reality, your own admitted actions belie that.

There is nothing wrong with calling out liars. Consider yourself called out, as well as your idiot fellow traveller from New York that calls hisself half-latino, without realizing what a latino is.

He's just against brown people.

Like you.

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April 23, 2010 10:19 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Debate don't Fight....

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April 23, 2010 9:59 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Is that your intelligent response? LOL!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:07 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Yep. Tell me, what criteria will they use in a state where 99% of the illegal immigrants are latino?

It doesn't require intelligence to answer. Just a smidgen of honesty and integrity.

Two qualities you and Dug seem to lack.

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April 23, 2010 10:15 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Quit channeling Ole Saul and try to be yourself for once!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:28 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Answer the question.

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gumbun

April 23, 2010 9:15 PM

Concepts you can't understand.

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laborlawyer

April 23, 2010 9:24 PM

New York, you're dodging the question: How do you define "reasonable suspicion" that someone is not a legal resident WITHOUT using race? So far, the scenarios you've presented relate to different legal issues, such as operating a vehicle without a license. I'm still waiting to hear a non-racial definition of the phrase.

See, the thing is, you're a smart guy. You know that most supporters of this kind of bill are tinking of a particular type of illegal immigrant (see the "go back to Mexico" comment by DugFmJamul), thus the "reasonable suspicion" they're thinking of is racial in nature (i.e., brown-skinned folks). But you know you can't say that. And so you either make yourself dishonest or deliberately obtuse. But the truth is obvious.

Late add: I now see you're a birther too. Forget the part about you being smart.

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April 23, 2010 9:37 PM in reply to laborlawyer

I never said that, "(see the "go back to Mexico" comment by DugFmJamul), but I have no problem with saying it if someone is here illegally from Mexico. I would say "go back to Ireland" if the situation deserves it, or Canada for that matter.

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JohnMcCSF

April 23, 2010 9:39 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Born in East LA
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2026973/v2168232

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April 23, 2010 9:46 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF

A Classic...very funny, thanks for making me laugh!

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April 23, 2010 9:55 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

how many socks do you have?

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April 23, 2010 9:39 PM in reply to laborlawyer

OK, how about a reasonable suspicion being that one observes an individual gaining entry into Arizona by climbing over the fence in the middle of the night? That doesn't sound like a race or color issue to me. That sounds reasonable to me. Also, the bill doesn't mention race, it mentions immigration status. You are the one who is making it a racial issue.

Have a nice day.

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JohnMcCSF

April 23, 2010 9:41 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Of COURSE the bill doesn't mention race.

Sheesh...not the sharpest corn in the turn RU

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April 23, 2010 9:45 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF

That's the point. Only you and others here only see a race issue. Sorry, but race doesn't trump immigration status. Try to focus.

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JohnMcCSF

April 23, 2010 9:48 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Fool

They're not going to stop Canadians

They're going to stop HISPANICS

And that is not a race....

Welcome to the Police State of Arizona

Let's hear some more about Obama and Hitler

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April 23, 2010 9:55 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF

Oh? How do you know? You only have a racist point of view. You are so concerned about those being questioned about their immigration status. What about Arizonians? What about their rights? What about protecting them? Or aren't you an American?

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mophan

April 23, 2010 10:07 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Funny, a racist calling someone a racist for pointing out he is a racist. Yep, you are an idiot.

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April 23, 2010 9:59 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF

They're not going to stop Canadians
They're going to stop HISPANICS

We are being invaded by Mexico, not Canada!

How many more Americans must die at the hands of illegal aliens to satisfy your foolish policies of progressivism?

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mophan

April 23, 2010 10:34 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

It took you awhile to show your face. You start off by spouting unsubstantiated facts and try to prove them with more unsubstantiated facts. Maybe you should try actual facts, and more would take you seriously. Ta ta!

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April 24, 2010 2:29 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

"We are being invaded by Mexico, not Canada!"

Where is this military invasion you talk about? The tanks of the Mexican Army must have some stealth device because I can't see them.

"How many more Americans must die at the hands of illegal aliens to satisfy your foolish policies of progressivism?"

How many more handicapped Americans must die at the hands of the private sector to satisfy your foolish policies of conservatism?

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April 24, 2010 6:49 AM in reply to Spleeny Lutheran

Where is this military invasion you talk about?

I never spoke of a "military invasion", just "Invasion" so my progressive friend what is the Constitutional definition of "Invasion"?

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amber

April 23, 2010 10:06 PM in reply to JohnMcCSF

JohnMcC,

Your fascination with Hitler makes sense. Hispanics isn't a race, but I'll bet no Spaniards will get harassed. Mostly Mexicans, brown-skinned, brown-haired, brown-eyed people will be racially profiled. Don't act like a fool (probably impossible to ask since you're obviously a complete f-ing moron) with your whole Hispanics are not a race bull.

The Jim Crow point is right on because that's exactly what they're aiming at. It's racial profiling through and through.

Oh yeah I'm with Bwakfat– Go f*ck yourself.

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April 23, 2010 10:42 PM in reply to amber

Amber,

You're so emotional....calm down!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 9:49 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Yeah, and the Jim Crow Laws weren't aimed at Black people. Right?

Go fuck yourself.

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April 23, 2010 9:52 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Jim Crow Laws? Aren't they similar to the Black Congressional Caucus' only black membership?

??

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:05 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

Ignorant addle-pated louse. Your contempt for anyone not quite as white as you no doubt springs from your ignorance. Did a Latino beat you out of a job? Or a woman? Or a black person?

It's pretty obvious you have an axe to grind. Like I said, it's ugly. If someone beat you out of a job, its probably because you ARE ignorant. Please take your feelings of utter inadequacy elsewhere, or better yet, stop whining and pull yourself up by your jack-boot straps.

Read a book.

ANY book.

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April 23, 2010 10:07 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Wipe your pie hole because shit keeps coming out of it!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:16 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

No, you just can't handle someone calling you out on your shit, and and making you out to be the fool you are by using your own comments to hoist you on a petard of your own making. So, you get mad and assume the natural state of your being which has the emotional/intellectual capacity of a gnat

I am laughing at you, BTW.

You make it to easy.

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April 23, 2010 10:30 PM in reply to Bwakfat

I'm praying someone you love will intervene on your behalf and remove you from your hateful progressive lifestyle and introduce you to the love of our Constitution and Republic.

CHEERS

GOOD NIGHT NOW!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:32 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Answer the question.

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April 23, 2010 10:57 PM in reply to NewYorkRob

fuck off troll

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April 23, 2010 9:54 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

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April 23, 2010 9:57 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Shouldn't you be working on your essay for Governor McDonnell?

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April 23, 2010 10:03 PM in reply to clemenceau

Nope, I'm supporting Conservative Republican Steve Poizner for Governor of California.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:34 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Does he support mocking the Border Officials like you do?

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yokem55

April 23, 2010 11:30 PM in reply to laborlawyer

As one who thinks this law is a piece of crap there are probably a few avenues of "reasonable suspicion" that aren't based on racial profiling. For example, law enforcement officers could possibly target:
*People congregating in an area known to be a place where undocumented workers solicit day labor.
*People that leave a Western Union (or similar) office after sending money.
*People that pay their utility bills with cash at pay stations.

Any of these activities, while perfectly legal in their own right, would likely meet the standard of "Reasonable Suspicion" allowing officers to examine immigration status without any explicit racial profiling going on. Now to avoid lawsuits, law enforcement agencies will have to articulate these "behavioral profiles", show that they actually work (i.e., a large portion of the people required to show their papers in these profiles fail to demonstrate their legal presence) and demonstrate that they are being applied without regard to race.

Tricky to do, yes. Impossible, no.

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April 23, 2010 10:00 PM

Hispanics make up 25% of Arizona's population, and they've pissed off the lot of them. It will likely be generations before Hispanics return to the Re-pubic-an party. That is the only good thing to come out of this.

Oh, and anytime a cop stops me, I'll demand to know why he isn't checking my immigration status.

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Cincinnatus

April 23, 2010 10:09 PM

Instead of setting his staff to wasting time examining whether or not the law is legal (something that is, after all, solely the prerogative of the courts), Obama would better spend his time with Federal enforcement actions of existing laws that would obviate the need for actions by individual states.

It is a sad commentary that 70% of Arizonans have been driven to supporting this dubious tactic. But even sadder is the utter default of the Administration in failing to take the steps necessary to protect the border, secure the safety of citizens and enforce the law.

Those who are trying to put a racial spin on this situation are living in the realm of theory and rhetoric. The overwhelming majority of the illegals are from Central and South America. They are the coyotes, drug traffickers and gang bangers. When one is fighting the Mafia, you will profile Italians. When you are fighting suicide bombers, you are profiling Middle Eastern men. Get over it...intelligent police work requires profiling. Otherwise you have the ultimate joke of security personnel wasting time checking out the archtypical 90 year old grandmothers at the airport.

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April 23, 2010 10:13 PM

Hispanics make up 25% of Arizona's population, and they've pissed off the lot of them.

What makes you think the majority of Hispanics in Arizona support illegal immigration?

Common sense dictates that Americans of Hispanic descent and immigrants that came here legally would support the new Arizona Law.

Only progressive seditionists and supporters of illegal immigration would be against the new Arizona Law.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:20 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

It is common sense to support a law that demands that you be subject to unreasonable search and seizure because of the color of your skin?

Not in this Country.

If you had any common sense, you'd understand that next they will come for the idiots. You're up, Dug.

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April 23, 2010 10:25 PM in reply to Bwakfat

One must possess common sense to be objective, you my dear have neither.

You are under the influence of Liberalism and liberalism has clouded you're judgment to think with an open mind.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:29 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Answer the question, Dug.

What criteria will they use to determine if someone is illegal, in a state where 99.9% of the illegal immigrants are Latino?

Why won't you answer that?

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April 23, 2010 10:32 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Sure I will...as soon as you tell me what the constitutional definition of "Invasion"!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:33 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

No, I asked first.

Answer the question.

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April 23, 2010 10:39 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Sure...as soon as you tell me what the constitutional definition of "Invasion"!

I have only been tasking you Progressives here at TPM to answer that simple question for the last two months, so far none of you Progressives have had the courage to answer it because you all know the logical consequences of your answer!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:42 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

You are changing the subject to another because you are in a corner, and like any other rat are squirming.

Answer the question, and stop being such a cowardly rat. You are giving rats a bad name.

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April 23, 2010 10:49 PM in reply to Bwakfat

No Dummkopf "Invasion" is very important to this debate, that is why you progressives try to avoid my question!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 10:59 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Then it is up to you to explain why it is. You can't just change the conversation, Dug. You have not answered the question on what criteria they will use to judge that someone is an illegal. It is a reasonable question, if one is interested in debate.

You like to impose your own rules on everyone, but you aren't the boss of me. If that sounds familiar, it's because you may have heard it in passing in a 3rd grade U.S. History Class. We beat you jerks then, and we'll do it now. Tyrants always lose in the end. Always.

Now quit the dodging and answer the question if you have one shred of honesty, decency, or integrity.

At this point it's clear you have none, but go ahead and surprise me.

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April 23, 2010 11:17 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Your post just proves to me you don't understand the new Arizona Law, if you did comprehend the law you wouldn't have made such an ignorant request of me!

Nothing you say the law will do, will do. You are just repeating Progressive Propaganda for the sake of avoiding the real issue...INVASION!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 11:23 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

OK, you won't answer, because you don't want to admit to being a bigot. Thanks for confirming that.

There is no invasion, Dug. It's all in your mind.

There is medication for that.

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April 23, 2010 11:31 PM in reply to Bwakfat

I did answer your question, "Nothing you say the law will do, will do". You're just too emotional to realize it and 12 - 15 million illegals is an "Invasion" princess, now it's your turn to answer my question.

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Early Out

April 23, 2010 11:43 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

An "invasion" without which the economy of several SW states would collapse. The "illegals" are here because we need them, and are willing to pay them for the work they do, work that most of the area's citizens are unwilling to perform.

Why do you hate capitalism so much? You must be one of them "communards."

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April 24, 2010 12:03 AM in reply to Early Out

Nonsense, were in a recession with millions of American out of work and millions still in prison!

1. What jobs await the prisoners when they are freed?
2. Will the prisoners find jobs that pay enough to keep them out of prison?
3. What high paying jobs are left to support our own American families?

The Day of the Immigrant is Over!

Over 7,000 Americans have died at the hand of the illegal alien since 9/11...how many American lives would be saved if the National Guard were sent to the Border to stop this invasion from Mexico?

What is the Constitutional definition of "Invasion"?

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mophan

April 24, 2010 12:38 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Wow. You are deep into the bullshit tonight. I would throw you a shovel, but I would rather see you wallow in your own filth. Hope you choke on it. CHEERS!

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Early Out

April 24, 2010 6:51 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

If the new arrivals were blond, blue-eyed Scandanavians, you'd be welcoming them with open arms. Or even better, New Zealanders, who already speak English.

You can dress them up however you like, but your arguments are still just weak, transparent excuses for bigotry.

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Bwakfat

April 24, 2010 10:52 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Invasion means invasion, invasion of what, Dug? Privacy? Are you talking about Article 1 section 8? Then it is clear they are talking about an armed invasion. There is no armed invasion from Mexico, nor any claim that Mexico is involved in a mass invasion of privacy.

The Constitution uses common definitions, there is no 'special', 'Constitutional' definition of the word 'invasion.'

You are delsional.

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April 24, 2010 1:32 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Go to the bottom for my reply....comrade!

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 11:56 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

That is not an answer. That is nonsense.

It isn't even English. What is your first language, Dug?

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April 24, 2010 12:10 AM in reply to Bwakfat

Rule 8: Keep the pressure on. Use different tactics and actions and use all events of the period for your purpose. “The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this that will cause the opposition to react to your advantage.”

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Bwakfat

April 24, 2010 10:23 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Another nonsensical comment.

Flustered?

Good.

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April 23, 2010 10:28 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Just some advice - when you get to the part where you have to describe in what ways you have contributed to society, I would leave out the part about posting "mexicans go home" on discussion threads. Come to think of it, I would leave out the joining NAMBLA too.

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April 23, 2010 10:35 PM in reply to clemenceau

Rule 7: A tactic that drags on for too long becomes a drag. Commitment may become ritualistic as people turn to other issues.

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April 23, 2010 10:44 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Those years in Hayden Lake..you might not want to ad that either.

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amber

April 23, 2010 10:48 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

We don't support illegal immigration. We are against racial profiling and discrimination.

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April 23, 2010 10:53 PM in reply to amber

Uh oh, I think they may have taken their straw man and gone home.

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April 23, 2010 10:57 PM in reply to amber

Oh really...What is the Constitutional definition of "Invasion"?

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April 24, 2010 5:33 PM in reply to amber

Let It Be

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April 23, 2010 11:19 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Most latinos, like most people of any ethnicity do not support illegal immigration. However it is a safe bet they don't like being racially profiled and being unconstitutionally stopped, search and arrested for not having proof of citizenship on them even more.

But I guess you are so "patriotic" that the 4th amendment means nothing to you.

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April 23, 2010 11:27 PM in reply to Lestatdelc

Have you read the Arizona Law?

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April 24, 2010 2:36 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Yes I have. Have you?

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April 24, 2010 11:22 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

This is a slap in the face of all Hispanics. Yeah there is a small minority who will still be Re-pubic-ans, but this vote will cost the Re-pubic-ans the Hispanic vote for at least a generation.

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Kuyleh

April 23, 2010 10:24 PM

So everyone who supports this idea is automatically a racist F*ck? Aren't you people starting to sound a tad like the Teabaggers? "They think different, they're SOCIALISTS!"

I don't care what color an illegal person is. Kick them out and let them try and come back the legal way. Good on this woman for actually trying to protect her city, and not caving to the bleeding hearts.

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April 23, 2010 10:30 PM in reply to Kuyleh

protecting her city from what?

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DebbieKat

April 23, 2010 10:26 PM

For those who don't think this law will be applied in a discriminatory manner, you should read this article. http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Man-says-he-was-racially-targeted-forced-to-provide-birth-certificate-91769419.html?commentPage=1#comments
This man was arrested for not having papers even BEFORE this bill was signed into law. I hope he sues the pants off them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXgfD0UKIY

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LisB

April 23, 2010 10:48 PM

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April 23, 2010 10:54 PM in reply to LisB

Imagine

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Freeman

April 23, 2010 10:58 PM

Enough!
All BS...
What right does any illegal have? None.
Mexican government has not launched a real offensive to stop the cartels.
Only when we start shooting the fence climbers will the flood stop.
After all, they are now shooting us!
Those already here and have been paying taxes, adjust their numbers and keep them. All others go home.
Those who return get 20 years hard labor breaking rocks in the hot sun. If they don't get shot at the fence...
Corral all protesters and check green cards.
Offer federal Flag Desecration charges when our flag is removed by illegal protesters. Destruction of Federal Property, Trespass with property damage, etc.
Then send the felonious home.
This is NOT Mexican territory, it is American ground. Love it or leave it, as in SPEAK ENGLISH...
Pity? Humanity?
My rage is directed at all who feel they have ownership rights to that which belongs to Americans exclusively!
A great deal of talk of coming doom AND large migration...any questions as to the migration already beginning?
In order to stop the hemorrhaging, you first have to stop the bleeding. As our social services run out of everything for us (social security, etc.), what justification is there in taking care of those we no longer have the means to care for?
Where in that is the citizens justification? Compassion? Pity?
Given all that, there are ways to rectify all these paradoxes.
Trouble is, no one is interested in hearing or doing.
Civil rights go right out the window through taking care of our own. Work for only those who belong here is the norm.
The USA no longer has the great surplus of all it takes to see to the needs of anyone who can make it here...and not enough to help ourselves.
Take all the race BS and stick it! Remember what Dr. King said, judged by the content of their character, not the color of their skin...
It is not judgment in a police stop, rather checking for the thieves who take what they have no right to.
No one wants to touch this problem, so I will. Feds not taking care of business, the states will...
IF the feds were as together as they would like to think they are, THEN they would offer accelerated programs to integrate these people into our society.
I feel no moral obligation to take food off my table to feed those who are illegally here. Make them legal and I will share what little I got. Until that time, go back home.
Offer them anything they need so long as they turn around and head south...
Those who use/abuse illegals need to be exiled and sent to Mexico.
Too many people and not enough food, water, etc.
Many will starve, die of thirst, and be killed in the coming years.
WWW III has been started, taking heads are beginning, and We The People are looking down the business end of the guns...
All of us will too soon be totally on our own and at odds with neighbors and acquaintances...to the death.
Might as well get some practice at our southern border, hmmm?
Have a nice day and sweet dreams.

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Bwakfat

April 23, 2010 11:18 PM in reply to Freeman

Hey Gov. Brewster, nice to see you commenting here.

I personally think it is inconceivable for an elected official to be so ignorant of the law. Please point out the law that makes English the de jure official national language of the U.S. I am quite sure that the French, Chinese, Spanish, Africans, Latinos, Spanish, American Indians, Japanese, Arabs, Persians, Germans, Norweigan, Dutch, Swedish, and all other ancestors of many Americans of non-English speaking origins, who settled this land with their sweat and blood won't be thanking you for your utter intolerance. It is not one sanctioned by our government, due to the fact that it would be useless and counter-productive to do so.

BTW, New Mexico has made Spanish a de jure second official language, and Louisiana has done the same for the French Language.

So, what were you saying?

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Mary Alice

April 24, 2010 11:05 AM in reply to Bwakfat

I'm saying I have a dream:
When a policeman or police car appears anywhere in Arizona I would like every one who can see it or him/her to break in a spirited version of the Mexican Hat Dance. How about every one opposed to this obscenity called a law wearing a sombrero, all the time, day and night?
I SAID it was a dream.

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Bwakfat

April 24, 2010 8:50 PM in reply to Mary Alice

Wrong sock. But thanks for the tell.

Idiot.

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LisB

April 23, 2010 11:32 PM in reply to Freeman

Wow. Watch Fox News much?

Take a deep breath and back away from the TV and PC. Go for a walk.

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SW

April 23, 2010 11:45 PM in reply to Freeman

I remember you. You and your kind used to 'clean up the streets' with lynch mobs. Smugly content that their birthright protected them from similar abuse. You are a persistent disease of the human race. Something we will probably never grow out of but would should hope to transcend. Something small and petty that gains an upper hand in times of economic stress. Something that would be ashamed of itself it had the ability feel shame. You my friend make me somewhat ashamed to be a member of this species.

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glblank

April 23, 2010 11:54 PM in reply to Freeman

What clown indicated he could tell an illegal by the shoes he wore. Invite a pull-over and mention the shoes.

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glblank

April 23, 2010 11:57 PM in reply to Freeman

I see the beta version of you grunt, it types software is available. Come back when you learn to walk upright, knuckle dragger.

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April 24, 2010 3:34 AM in reply to Freeman

This is NOT Mexican territory, it is American ground. Love it or leave it, as in SPEAK ENGLISH

This is Native American ground. Love it or leave it, as in SPEAK CHEROKEE

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KenK

April 23, 2010 11:07 PM

My modest proposal:
Immigrant rights groups should flood Arizona with citizens and legal residents that fit the “profile”. Invite pull-over. Take as long as possible to find their documents. Some may choose to be arrested (while actually having their documents in the car but “un-findable”) Tie Arizona in knots. Police will be unable to fulfill basic enforcement because they spend hours checking out legal residents. Bankrupt the enforcement machine. Monkey wrench gang!

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SW

April 23, 2010 11:17 PM

Chickenshit.

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HolzHacker

April 24, 2010 12:13 AM in reply to SW

EXACTLY! Chickenshit is the word.

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emanuous

April 24, 2010 12:18 AM

How come its always white people that come up with this BS? AZ politicians r loony anyway. They r racist based on the birther bill. McCain has been running for office for over 30 years and they never said anything. We know why. He is white. Well really pale to be honest. So this just takes it over the top. What does a white person no about racial profiling? U tell me? They have no clue. They just bitch about anything. Socialism (codename racists). Bush spent just as much grew govt just as much but no WHITE person said anything...Now we know how far this country has come. White people hate that a black man is in the white house. Oh..if not why the birther bill? Silly ass AZ politicians..Why the calls of socialism. Its just hate. plain and simple. DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Given Up

April 24, 2010 12:34 AM

You. Have. Got. To. Be. Kidding.

Political tone deafness aside, how long will it take for the lawsuits to start?

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marlow

April 24, 2010 12:59 AM in reply to Given Up

right after the first beating...and the first riot...and the first lynching...all caught no doubt on video...

another great day for the "greatest country on earth..."

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itheuser

April 24, 2010 1:01 AM

This will likely result in a total waste of money whether it remains, or is struck down. I presume it will be struck down. It's too messy. However, it's damage to the discussion is already apparent, and this very well could be the GOP's second act of self-mutilation.

While I am all for sensible immigration reform, and a strengthening of the borders, this is not the way to go about it, and it will likely have very little affect on the illegal immigration population if it were to go forth.

This is political pandering, plain and simple. Conservatives continue to insist on being on the wrong side of history, and they further cement their reincarnation as the "Know Nothing Party" of the mid 1800's. Their resemblance is uncanny.

Even Texas is not dumb enough to do this because it knows how much its illegal immigrant population matters to the state economy, and to effective border relations.

Arizona seems to be going through the denial stage, but Arizona has now become synonymous with birthers, and xenophobes.

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Red XIV

April 24, 2010 1:16 AM

Another Republican exercise in failure.

Sure they'll get short-term political gain in Arizona, but simple demographics make this a long-term debacle not only in Arizona, but also nationally.

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GSM

April 24, 2010 2:14 AM

Can you believe those white people, actually wanting to enforce our immigration laws! What sons of bitches! Pretty soon they'll be coming after us progressive's welfare checks! I'm not going to have to actually get a job, am I?

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April 24, 2010 2:24 AM in reply to GSM

This isn't about enforcing immigration laws. This is about violating the 4th amendment.

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rbe1

April 24, 2010 4:25 AM in reply to GSM

How about enforcing the law by requiring the Arizona police to enter every single business every single day and checking on how many of the employees are illegals ? Any found, and the owner goes to prison. How's that work for ya ?

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GSM

April 24, 2010 1:12 PM in reply to rbe1

I think that that's a great idea. Surprise answer, huh!! Anything to keep them on their side of the border, I am all for it. Why don't you contact your congressman and stress that level of enforcement because it's already law!

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JasonsRobot

April 24, 2010 4:09 AM

What documents do I have to carry with me while in AZ? I'm a natural US citizen and white but if I"m wearing a shirt with the flag of Ireland, theoretically, if a cop's in a bad mood, they can ask for my proof of citizenship. A Drivers License doesn't prove citizenship (I think). I could be here on an expired Student Visa and faking an American accent.

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Davran

April 24, 2010 5:20 AM in reply to JasonsRobot

Simple solution: stay the hell away from Arizona.

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rbe1

April 24, 2010 4:22 AM

Take advantage of the cheap labor these human beings provide and then kick them in the face. Sounds like a place I wouldn't want to live. This is true amerika folks, ala Sarah Palin.
How's that Nazi thing workin for ya, Arizona ?

http://weaselzippers.us/2010/04/23/new-anti-obama-billboard-in-marshall-texas/

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Barney

April 24, 2010 7:49 AM

No other word for it...but AWESOME!!!!!!!!!

No wonder Jug Ears will probabllose the in even the nomination process

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125662980&ft=1&f=1001

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rhallnj

April 24, 2010 9:04 AM

One wonders whether Brewer can now sign the Obama Birther bill, as well. I'm guessing not. Even Republicans must worry about turning their States into national jokes.

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Mary Alice

April 24, 2010 11:13 AM in reply to rhallnj

Arizona's been a joke since they elected Evan Meacham governor and Arpiao sheriff. Brewer's just following tradition.

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Mary Alice

April 24, 2010 10:57 AM

Please, please, please, higher power, help the planned boycott by Mexican-American truckers and sympathizers who normally haul produce between Mexico, Arizona and California. This bill makes Arizona the pariah state among us. Arpaio and gang rule.

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lilysdaddy

April 24, 2010 12:55 PM

I lived in AZ for a couple of years in a small town. When fields needed to be picked or tended in over 100 degree weather, guess who did the picking?? Hispanics.

Completely crappy job. Not a white face in sight.
Who scrubbed the toilets at the hotels? Hispanics.
Another completely crappy job. Not a white face in sight.

I would beel more against hispanic workers if they were "lazy mexicans". I saw hard working, cheap labor for American companies.

On another note. I visited Indianapolis. I went to the children's museum. White parents. White kids playing. Guess who was cleaning the museum, making the food, serving the food? African Americans.

I spoke with a young woman the other day who told me that slavery was "long ago", had "nothing to do with her" and "blacks" should "get over it".

The denial and insensitivity of many white people amaze me. Every little pain is memorized with self righteous vigor and every transgression or abuse is trivialized.

And for the record. I am white.

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April 24, 2010 5:58 PM in reply to lilysdaddy

Not white, More like YELLOW

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lilysdaddy

April 24, 2010 12:57 PM

Remember when AZ didn't want to celebrate MLK Day??

Another proud day for Arizona.

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msway

April 24, 2010 1:12 PM

I am glad this was signed into law today. Now we can begin the repealing of this racially charged bs. This will deter any other state from trying this foolishness.

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cacamp

April 24, 2010 1:12 PM

Wingnuts and racists alway blame the victims. Don't forget NAFTA is the problem. This and other unfree trade practices are what devastated the rural Mexican and Central American economies and drove the campasinos from their ancestral lands. These are native people who have lived in their homes for many centuries and have no desire to leave or come the the USA. These are agriculturalists who used to be able to grow their crops for a profit until NAFTA instituted monoculture and large mulitnational companies began to dominate the political landscape and starve small farmers off their lands. Entire ancient villages were emptying and only hungry kids and elders were left behind.

All of a sudden people were without any means of making a living and they began to starve so in desperation they were forced into a choice. Either they could move into the teeming slums of Mexico City or other large cities or they could make the horribly dangerous treck to the USA. They also knew that on the USA side of the border employers were standing there waving money in front of desperate people who wanted only to work and feed their children.

If they chose coming to the USA they had to leave their hungry children behind and make it to the border all the while attempting to avoid becoming victims to gangs and corrupt police. Once at the border they are faced with crossing a hundred miles of desert again frought with hostile and armed border guards, gangs of looters and death by thirst and starvation. But they were driven on by the knowledge that their kids and elders were depending on them for help and in desperate need of sustanance.

Once across the border they may or might not find work but always they have to live in fear of being deported or becoming prey to ruthless American employers who cheat them out of money they have worked long hours to make at below minimum wages. It's not a life they want nor one they can control.

The reason these humans are here is because the USA forced them to come here. They are the victims in this charade of capitalism and until we Americans realize and understand this they will have no choice but to keep coming no matter the draconian laws we pass or the hate and racism they must endure.

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tchanta

April 24, 2010 1:34 PM

I hope a Hispanic or Black cop will stop this governor and ask her papers.

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April 24, 2010 1:37 PM

Invasion means invasion, invasion of what, Dug? Privacy? Are you talking about Article 1 section 8?

I didn’t mention Art I Sec 8 specfically, so common sense dictates I was referring to all instances of the word invasion within the Constitution.
You are a small time progressive seditionist that has been indoctrinated into the progressive cause without examining the “common sense” of your positions or the text within the Constitution, such a simple practice would expose your dogma for the dog shit that it is.
So you just don’t think, you feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel!

Then it is clear they are talking about an armed invasion. There is no armed invasion from Mexico, nor any claim that Mexico is involved in a mass invasion of privacy.

No…the Constitution does not limit itself to one definition of “invasion” in the three times it mentions it, otherwise the Constitution would say armed or military invasion. No my seditionist foe, the Constitution encompasses all the definitions of invasion to protect the American People against the different types of invasion and not limit itself to just one definition, you have failed to recognize this because of your seditious ways.

Article 1 Section 8 - Powers of Congress
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Section 9 - Limits on Congress
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

Section 4 - Republican government
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

The Mexican Government encourages its people to encroach and violate our national sovereignty by giving out maps to our hospitals for their people to come here to get FREE medical attention.

The Mexican Army has encroached on our border over 500 times in the last two years, protecting various drug cartel shipments.

Over 7,000 Americans have died at the hand of illegal aliens since 9/11; hundreds have been kidnapped for ransom.

Americans living on the border with Mexico have been terrorized by illegal aliens on a daily biases.

This is just not criminal actives conducted by a rogue regime in Mexico City; no this is “Invasion” of our National Sovereignty as defined by our Constitution which our Government should be enforcing if it wasn’t a “rogue regime” also.

The Socialist Government of Obama cares more about protecting illegal aliens (future democrat voters) than the good citizens of the United States of America.

The Constitution uses common definitions, there is no 'special', 'Constitutional' definition of the word 'invasion.
'

Correct and since the constitution is not encrypted with 1787 encryption code …

The Constitution in its words is plain and intelligible, and it is meant for the homebred, unsophisticated understandings of our fellow citizens.

Common sense dictates “invasion” means the same today as it did in 1787.
Here is Webster's dictionary of 1828 definition of Invasion.

http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,invasion

Invasion:
1. A hostile entrance into the possessions of another; particularly, the entrance of a hostile army into a country for the purpose of conquest or plunder, or the attack of a military force. The north of England and south of Scotland were for centuries subject to invasion, each from the other. The invasion of England by William the Norman, was in 1066.

2. An attack on the rights of another; infringement or violation.

3. Attack of a disease; as the invasion of the plague, in Egypt.

Here is the modern definition of Invasion:

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition 1992

Invasion:

1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
2. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
3. An intrusion or encroachment.

Failing to define Mexico’s encroachment onto our National Sovereignty as an “INVASION” defined by the Constitution will cost the lives of thousands of Americans.

The blood of Americans is on the hands of a corrupt Democratic-Socialist Congress lead by a Socialist President.

Congress or the President has the power to send the National Guard to the Mexican Border to stop this Mexican INVASION, why don’t they do it?

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Bwakfat

April 24, 2010 8:37 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Because it is not an invasion, idiot. Invasion at the very least implies hostile intent. Crossing the border to pick lettuce doesn't qualify. So you admit there is no constitutional definition. It's AFT.

There are migrations of the poor moving around the globe. This will continue until there is more parity. You might want to join the Liberals in that. The only way to stop mass migrations, is to create jobs and decent living conditions.

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April 24, 2010 10:03 PM in reply to Bwakfat

You're doing what most progressive seditionist dirt bags do, twist the meaning of the text of the Constitution to suite your unholy dogma.

No...with your help (thank you little pawn) I prove exactly what the Constitution means by "Invasion" it means...

1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
2. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
3. An intrusion or encroachment.

Mexico's encroachment on our National Sovereignty and 12 million Mexicans (most with harmful diseases) crossing our border illegally has meet the Constitutional definition of "Invasion" and the National Guard needs to be deployed to stop this invasion, end of debate.

You lose...I'm done with this subject you progressive seditionist dirt bag...

...Next please!

CHEERS

GOOD NIGHT NOW!

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 8:26 AM in reply to DugFmJamul

Dug, get thee to an elementary school. Not only does the word invasion not have any special constitutional definition, you can't even understand the standard definition.

You are a piece of work.

I do hope you don't breed.

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April 25, 2010 2:47 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Not only does the word invasion not have any special constitutional definition, you can't even understand the standard definition.

Correct, the word invasion does not have any special constitutional definition, but what you can't even understand is and what I have been saying all along "the standard definition" applies to all three instances within the Constitution!

I spelled it out quite clearly so anyone not under the influence of liberalism could comprehend the concept very easily, if you don't get it..oh well at least I tried!

More importantly you can't even understand when and how you have been "OUTPLAYED", you progressive seditionist dirt bag!

CHEERS

GOOD NIGHT NOW!

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 10:29 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

No, you just did a 360, and you look like a fool.

SWEET DREAMS

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earlyautumn

April 24, 2010 1:53 PM

Solution:

Stop sending money to Israel, the most blatantly racist nation in the world today.

Send the many $billions we donate to that racist country to northern Mexico to support some really good jobs for Mexicans at home. Then most of them will stay home, because they come here to make a living.

Kill two birds with one stone. Make Israel become a less powerful, and more humane country, and stop most of the illegal immigration from south of the border.

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geofu54

April 24, 2010 2:18 PM

This is probably one of the most troll-infested thread ever.

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April 24, 2010 3:00 PM in reply to geofu54

You just don't like a dose of the truth. You believe in a land of unicorns and rainbows, but it doesn't work like that IRL.
You liberals are getting torn up on this thread defending your precious Mexicans, and after pulling out Godwin's law and failing, you then turn to screetching "troll".

Trolls do it for the LULZ.

I'm telling you the way IT IS.
You don't add 30,000,000 Mexicans to something to make it better. They've destroyed their country, and the traitors here find it acceptable for them to invade our lands and destroy our living space. These are evil people calling for the destruction of America under the false banner of "Aztlan".

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Davran

April 24, 2010 3:41 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Whatever. Troll.

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Davran

April 24, 2010 3:41 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Whatever. Troll.

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Max Thrax

April 24, 2010 2:26 PM

This is all about the end of the white majority in the US. The closer it gets, the more these hillbillies lose their minds. One day, when they are the minority, they'll be sorry. FOr those of you in AZ, call the cops on your white neighbors voice your suspicion that they're here illegally from Canada.

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April 24, 2010 2:44 PM in reply to Max Thrax

One day, when they are the minority, they'll be sorry.

What is the meaning of this threat and why do you hate a white majority in the US?

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dtOZONE

April 24, 2010 3:21 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

I don't know what the meaning of the threat is, but as a white person, I hate the white majority because many of them have been spending two hundred years performing the most disgraceful disgusting abuses of human rights in a vain attempt to protect it.

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April 24, 2010 5:17 PM in reply to dtOZONE

You seem to exhibiting signs of "Classic White Guilt"...snap out of it!

Free yourself from the bonds of Liberalism and look at the world thru objective eyes and only then once freed from bondage will know the "White Majority" good deeds has out weighed their bad.

Come to love our Constitution, the Republic and the "White Majority" founding fathers that gave us the best damn nation in the world...for all human kind within the borders of these United States.

God bless the USA!

If tomorrow all the things were gone . . I'd worked for all my life, And I had to start again . . with just my children and my wife, I'd thank my lucky stars . . to be livin' here today. Cause the flag still stands for freedom . . And they can't take that away.
And I'm proud to be an American
Where at least I know I'm free
And I won't forget the men who died
Who gave that right to me
And I gladly stand up
. . next to you and defend her still today
Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God bless the USA

From the lakes of Minnesota
... To the hills of Tennessee
... Across the plains of Texas
... From sea to shining sea
... From Detroit down to Houston
... And New York to LA
Well there's pride in every American heart
And its time we stand and say..

That I'm proud to be an American
Where at least I know I'm free
And I won't forget the men who died
Who gave that right to me
And I gladly stand up . . next to you and defend her still today
Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God bless the USA

And I'm proud to be an American
Where at least I know I'm free
And I won't forget the men who died
Who gave that right to me
And I gladly stand up . . next to you and defend her still today
Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land
God bless the USA!

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April 24, 2010 3:02 PM in reply to Max Thrax

I'm hoping that Hispanic officers, who comprise a large percentage of the law enforcement officers in AZ will begin pulling over whites and demanding they prove that they are not here illegally.

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April 24, 2010 3:14 PM in reply to RocketEngineer

SEDITIONIST

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April 24, 2010 8:26 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Your new word for the day Dug-ie? Why don't you run back over to redstate, find some new ones and bring them back to us?

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April 24, 2010 10:05 PM in reply to RocketEngineer

I never blog a "Redstate.com", if that's what you mean.

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April 24, 2010 11:14 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

No, I mean you appear to have found a new word and have been spreading it all over this site. Of course you're not quite clear on what it really means.

Now go back to whatever hole it is that you crawl out of and learn some new words. We'll be happy to help you with their meanings. And don't worry we'll use small words that you'll understand.

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April 25, 2010 3:18 PM in reply to RocketEngineer

What does the word "SEDITIONIST" mean to you, exactly?

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April 25, 2010 3:41 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Awww Dug-ie! You left your mommy to come back here.

My point was you learned a new word, but you weren't using it correctly. So you can really remember the word go back and look up the definition, then you can come back here.

But if you need to spend more quality time with your mother, I'll understand.

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April 25, 2010 4:03 PM in reply to RocketEngineer

Comrade,

I have already posted my definition of "SEDITIONIST" many times here at TPM, for the sake of this argument and discussion.

What's yours?

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April 24, 2010 3:27 PM

Mexico has been encouraging its citizens to invade our country for years, they actually have been invading our country for years, and now their worried about diplomacy?

Honestly, if my neighbor threw his garbage over the fence, I would have a word with him. If it happened again, I would throw it back. If it happened a third time, you can bet their might be some rolling around in the yard after throwing his garbage back over the fence, in his face.

The problem with this country is, the neighbor has been throwing the garbage over the fence for decades. The stinking mass of crap has piled up way beyond control and is filling up the yard, killing the flowers, the grass and the bushes, yet very little has ever been thrown back. If the mess keeps up, our yard is going to look just as trashy as the neighbor's yard. At least one of our family members (Arizona in this case) has the gonads to stand up and do something about it.

The Governor of AZ should run for president.

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April 24, 2010 5:02 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Your post contains too much "Common Sense" for the progressive seditionist mind to comprehend, any more "Common Sense" from the likes of you and their heads might explode...so...please be my guest and continue.

I'm waiting for the fireworks to begin!

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Bwakfat

April 24, 2010 8:29 PM in reply to IndisputableAttitude

Illegal immigrants are not garbage, they are human beings.

You appear to be insane. I am serious. Get help.

http://www.fox11az.com/home/related/Statement-from--91948419.html

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JoeTheMechanic

April 24, 2010 3:47 PM

"Arizona Hispanic Republicans will not vote for Jan Brewer this year because we are holding her accountable for supporting a bill that violates the Constitution and our Civil Rights. I have sounded the alarm to all Republicans in this state that the passing of this bill is political suicide."

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April 24, 2010 4:56 PM in reply to JoeTheMechanic

SEDITIONIST

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Davran

April 24, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Dude. Those are Republicans refusing to support a Republican. We're just bystanders on that one.

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Davran

April 24, 2010 5:40 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Dude. Those are Republicans refusing to support a Republican. We're just bystanders on that one.

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April 24, 2010 5:49 PM in reply to Davran

Dude...are you bipolar? Just kidding...smile

Please clarify your above posts...

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http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/washing.asp

April 24, 2010 6:54 PM

I thought the Spanish American war had already ended?
I guess they just regrouped for the second assault?

Washington's Farewell Address 1796

“In contemplating the causes which may disturb our Union, it occurs as matter of serious concern that any ground should have been furnished for characterizing parties by geographical discriminations, Northern and Southern, Atlantic and Western; whence designing men may endeavor to excite a belief that there is a real difference of local interests and views. One of the expedients of party to acquire influence within particular districts is to misrepresent the opinions and aims of other districts. You cannot shield yourselves too much against the jealousies and heartburnings which spring from these misrepresentations; they tend to render alien to each other those who ought to be bound together by fraternal affection. The inhabitants of our Western country have lately had a useful lesson on this head; they have seen, in the negotiation by the Executive, and in the unanimous ratification by the Senate, of the treaty with Spain, and in the universal satisfaction at that event, throughout the United States, a decisive proof how unfounded were the suspicions propagated among them of a policy in the General Government and in the Atlantic States unfriendly to their interests in regard to the Mississippi; they have been witnesses to the formation of two treaties, that with Great Britain, and that with Spain, which secure to them everything they could desire, in respect to our foreign relations, towards confirming their prosperity. Will it not be their wisdom to rely for the preservation of these advantages on the Union by which they were procured ? Will they not henceforth be deaf to those advisers, if such there are, who would sever them from their brethren and connect them with aliens?….
The basis of our political systems is the right of the people to make and to alter their constitutions of government. But the Constitution which at any time exists, till changed by an explicit and authentic act of the whole people, is sacredly obligatory upon all. The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government. …..

All obstructions to the execution of the laws, all combinations and associations, under whatever plausible character, with the real design to direct, control, counteract, or awe the regular deliberation and action of the constituted authorities, are destructive of this fundamental principle, and of fatal tendency. They serve to organize faction, to give it an artificial and extraordinary force; to put, in the place of the delegated will of the nation the will of a party, often a small but artful and enterprising minority of the community; and, according to the alternate triumphs of different parties, to make the public administration the mirror of the ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests. ….

However combinations or associations of the above description may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely, in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion…..
The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty. ….Without looking forward to an extremity of this kind (which nevertheless ought not to be entirely out of sight), the common and continual mischiefs of the spirit of party are sufficient to make it the interest and duty of a wise people to discourage and restrain it.
It serves always to distract the public councils and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection. It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the channels of party passions. Thus the policy and the will of one country are subjected to the policy and will of another. …..

So likewise,

a passionate attachment of one nation for another

produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others…..

It is important, likewise, that the habits of thinking in a free country should inspire caution in those entrusted with its administration, to confine themselves within their respective constitutional spheres, avoiding in the exercise of the powers of one department to encroach upon another. The spirit of encroachment tends to consolidate the powers of all the departments in one, and thus to create, whatever the form of government, a real despotism. A just estimate of that love of power, and proneness to abuse it, which predominates in the human heart, is sufficient to satisfy us of the truth of this position. The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositaries, and constituting each the guardian of the public weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them.

If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way which the Constitution designates.

But let there be no change by usurpation; for though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed. The precedent must always greatly overbalance in permanent evil any partial or transient benefit, which the use can at any time yield.

The United States Congress passed an immigration bill after much deliberation. The law was to be enforced, but instead it was ignored
ARIZONA had no choice, it will apply the deliberated, enacted law, the enfeebled Federal government, was unwilling to apply.

The Federal Government may collapse under the threat of factional politics, but the State does not have to follow suit .
If the Fed can’t or will not do, then States will.

Just because the Federal Government is dysfunctional, doesn’t absolve the States from doing the will of its citizens, within it’s boundaries, it’s sphere of control.

Good luck President Obama and you Democrats, ironic isn’t it; Illegal immigration will destroy you too.

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labman57

April 24, 2010 8:57 PM

The Governor of Arizona indignantly asserts that racial profiling will not be permitted during the enforcement of this dandy piece of legislation.

Of course, the big question is what criteria will local police use as the basis for approaching people on the street and demanding to see their "papers". Yes, it is indeed a matter of some complexion.

One possibility -- require all legal Latinos to wear armbands with a symbol (a star, perhaps) to show their status. That would make it much easier to identify the illegals -- at least the illegal aliens that are the real focus of this legislation.

Perhaps Arizona law enforcement would be well served to get special training for this new mission -- I hear that the Gestapo Handbook makes excellent reading...

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April 24, 2010 9:09 PM in reply to labman57

One of the expedients of party to acquire influence within particular districts is to misrepresent the opinions and aims of other districts. You cannot shield yourselves too much against the jealousies and heartburnings which spring from these misrepresentations; they tend to render alien to each other those who ought to be bound together by fraternal affection.

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April 24, 2010 10:24 PM in reply to labman57

Maybe all illegals will depart Arizona and return to their country of origin.

What a surprise that may be!

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gumbun

April 25, 2010 1:00 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

Or move to your state

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April 25, 2010 1:21 PM in reply to gumbun

True, they could and that is why we need the National Guard on the border to stop this "Invasion" from Mexico.

For the Constitutionally challenge individuals 'Invasion' means all of the below...

1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
2. A large-scale onset of something injurious or harmful, such as a disease.
3. An intrusion or encroachment.

Mexico and 12 -15 million illegal Mexicans (most with harmful diseases)have meet all of the definitions of 'Invasion' the Constitution needs for the "Militia" to be called up and deployed to the border to protect the American People from this ongoing Mexican Invasion.

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 1:48 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

For the non-comprehension challenged, you will note that Dug is using a standard definition of the word invasion, thee is no "constitutional" definition of the word invasion, and that a people crossing the border for work is not an invasion.

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April 25, 2010 2:50 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Correct, so the standard definition applies!

Thanks for clearly that up...my little pawn!

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April 25, 2010 3:04 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Oh by the way...CHECKMATE you lose again, thanks for playing!

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 10:18 PM in reply to DugFmJamul

not exactly, Dug.

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Leftflank

April 24, 2010 9:24 PM

In terms of the AZ economy, a simple, thank you, to the Mexicans would have been much more in order. The restaurants, golf courses, & border retail shops will be saying more like, we're sorry. The convention centers & tourism industry won't have to worry about apologizing, they'll be extinct.

I'm done with Arizona for sure now, almost a crazy gun law ago, & the creative ways to boycott them have just barely begun.

There's never a Maverick around when you need one!

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Smitty McGhee

April 24, 2010 11:10 PM

So, do legal aliens and citizens in Arizona need to carry papers now, lest they be deported or detained on suspicion of being illegal? Sounds pretty eastern bloc to me.

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ejhickey

April 24, 2010 11:55 PM

Saying that this law leads to a police state is hysterical nonsense at best. The laws of police states such as the old Soviet Union. Nazi Germany, or Cuba were intended to arrest and incarcerate and punish enemies of these states. These laws were used to persecute and prosecute people who spoke out or acted against the State. In contrast the AZ law is intended to deport people who are here illegally but not to permanently imprison or punish them. Once deported , illegal immigrants will still be free in their native countries.

However this law would not be necessary if it were legal to deny economic, healthcare benefits and free public education to illegal immigrants and their children.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW3jD-P7JPs&feature=player_embedded

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Jesus B Ochoa

April 25, 2010 1:35 AM

Boycott Arizona.

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April 25, 2010 2:20 AM in reply to Jesus B Ochoa

Boycotts work both ways.
The only ones that will be hurt by your boycott, will be legal immigrants and Americans.

YOUR SOLUTION TYPIFIES STUPITY
Cutting off they’re own noses to spite they’re faces.

Keep it up and eventually Arizona will have less of a Hispamic community and all legal hispanic will suffer the blowback Legal Hispanics suffering because of your boycott.

What a stupid idea.

The same stupidity that thought the Governor would be swayed by blackmail, by an Arizona Senator with his head up his.

Arizona will never admit it needs Hispanics. even if it hurts them.
Eventually Arizona will recover and the victory will announce to the world THEY did it wihout Hispanics, without immigrants. The cry to other States; follow Arizona, they survived.

The next protst that gets out of hand in Arizona and you'll solidify Arizonans. You want a war you'll get one.
Arizona is not cowering under threat, they'll call your bluff, as they waste the community under siege.

Imagine massive roundups, the media attention the insurrectionists sought.
Insurrectionist who’ll claim they had no choice, and someone reminding them Arizona modeled it’s laws to comply with the Federal laws.

Fox News Headline “America under attack by Hispanic insurrectionists and they’re allies who won’t follow the law, they all promote illegality”
The Hispanic community now having to defend itself against accuations, If the Hispanics don’t like the law they’ll ignore it, or try to overthrow it “

You'll need more than papers.
MEDIC, MEDIC, LAWYER
The rest of America will discover WHO started the invasion and subsequent insurrection.

Take the bait. Arizona awaits your next move.

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 9:39 AM in reply to Resistance

We already know who started it.

Intolerant, poorly educated, inept bigots. None of them are from Mexico.

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mophan

April 26, 2010 5:26 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Right... just like the South did it without any slaves. Revisionist history must equal a revisionist future for some.

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April 25, 2010 10:03 AM

According to Bwakfat Arizona is filled with "Intolerant, poorly educated, inept bigots."

Get the word out " DON'T COME TO ARIZONA" Arizonans are intolerant of law breakers.

If you didn't enter the Country legally, or you don't have the legal authority or qualifications; Go anywhere else you want to go, just don't come to Arizona.

Comprende

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 10:39 AM in reply to Resistance

No, Arizonans are intolerant of anyone without a white skin.

It's disgusting. Who is next? Jews?

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new10

April 25, 2010 6:16 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Bwak,

To paraphrase Chris Rock: Yup, that train ain't never late!

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grtpyrmd

April 25, 2010 12:13 PM

Why anyone would be surprised at this is really beyond my understanding. The right wing projects on to whoever they perceive as "other" be we of different color, ethnicity, religious belief, political persuasion, etc. The Obama as Hitler and many other incendiary signs are what they are: they are the fascists, they are the ones who would tear up the constitution, they are the ones who seek government intrusion in our personal lives, they are the proponents of torture. The open blandishment of weapons, the violent, racist hyperbole, the shouting-down of all opposing voices is meant to intimidate us. Now their ties to even more extreme, militant groups are coming to light and even these are not disavowed by the so-called mainstream GOP, which is courting these sentiments in search of political gain. The Arizona law is meant to codify, and legalize, racial profiling. It is a racist law not unlike the Nuremberg Laws, and the Reich Citizenship Laws of the Third Reich era Germany. Let this stand at our own peril.

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gumbun

April 25, 2010 12:26 PM

Let's review some facts.

1) There is no such thing as a NATIVE WHITE AMERICAN. America was full of NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS when we got here. We liked the place, they got slaughtered and rounded up into Reservations. Remember that? Talk about wanting your country back (imagine how they feel).

2) Conservatives say that they LOVE THE CONSTITUTION more than ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD. But they just pissed all over it. There are ways to control borders without becoming a completely fascist country.

3) If you are mad about illegal Mexican immigrants, write your elected officials and ask them to pass legislation that makes it illegal for corporations to hire the slave labor they provide, thus keeping the cost of our industries low, and corporate profits high. Tell them you want to spend the money for a wall and you don't mind being taxed for it!

4) My great grandparents met on a boat to America from Whales. They were not Native Americans, neither were yours (unless you are Navajo or another Native American Tribe!).

This legislation makes it ok to put a group of people (based on their physical attributes) on a list and discriminate against them. We understand the crime needs to be dealt with, there are smart ways to get what you want, without alienating American citizens.

There are American citizens of Mexican descent that got here and legalized before my great grandparents got here. Your rationale is that I am more American because I'm white than they are because they are brown. Get it? If you don't, then you are going to be very frustrated here, and in life.

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LisB

April 25, 2010 12:34 PM in reply to gumbun

And that's the facts, Jack! Good summary, Gumbun.

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Orlando

April 25, 2010 12:54 PM in reply to gumbun

Um, if he lives in Arizona and is Navajo or from another Native American tribe, he's screwed unless he has papers.

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April 25, 2010 3:21 PM in reply to gumbun

Facts, sorry your post is mostly Liberal Conjecture and void of any real "Facts and has no bearing on the controversial new Arizona Law.

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randomname

April 25, 2010 1:05 PM

I'm so pissed about this. I wanted to see the Grand Canyon. I don't dare, now. My husband is 2nd generation Mexican. Doesn't speak any Spanish at all. My children are Puerto Rican. They are all dark. You know...illegal looking.

Geesus. Arizona=Nazi Germany.

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April 25, 2010 3:27 PM in reply to randomname

You're overreacting, your family will be more safe in Arizona than another State in the Union!

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/scarce/az-truck-driver-forced-show-birth-certifica

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MrJJ

April 25, 2010 4:25 PM

Arizona should amend its new law and state that EVERYONE must be in possesion of a Valid US Passport or US Birth Certificate...

The shape of things to come? Sure looks like it. And this incident happened before Gov. Jan Brewer signed the SB1070 into law on Friday. Video and story from AzFamily.com.

PHOENIX – A Valley man says he was pulled over Wednesday morning and questioned when he arrived at a weigh station for his commercial vehicle along Val Vista and the 202 freeway.

Abdon, who did not want to use his last name, says he provided several key pieces of information but what he provided apparently was not what was needed.

He tells 3TV, “I don't think it's correct, if I have to take my birth certificate with me all the time.”

3TV caught up with Abdon after he was released from the Immigration and Customs Enforcement office in central Phoenix. He and his wife, Jackie, are still upset about what happened to him.

Jackie tells 3TV, “It's still something awful to be targeted. I can't even imagine what he felt, people watching like he was some type of criminal.”

Abdon was told he did not have enough paperwork on him when he pulled into a weigh station to have his commercial truck checked. He provided his commercial driver’s license and a social security number but ended up handcuffed.

An agent called his wife and she had to leave work to drive home and grab other documents like his birth certificate.

Jackie explains, “I have his social security card as well and mine. He's legit. It's the first time it's ever happened.”

Both were born in the United States and say they are now both infuriated that keeping important documents safely at home is no longer an option

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April 25, 2010 6:29 PM

Do you think the Federal Government will finally act?
Arizona was sick and tired of being the rump of our inept government.
A Federal government that could run two illegal wars, they failed at the SEC, finally after years of abuse and ignoring Arizona’s pleas for reimbursemnet for doing the Feds job.

How many other States had to deal with an influx of 1/2 million unaccounted, undocumented since the last census. How many States should tell the Government to do it’s job?

Arizona had continually asked for help, but was always ignored.

Now we'll see if the Fed finally addresses the issue, instead of treating Arizona like crap.

They say it rolls down hill, I wonder what the Hill will do now?

Solution:
Reimburse Arizona, and the reason for the hostility against illegals will diminish.
Federal Government you’re so charitable, you pay for the illegals benefits.

We tried, we pleaded, you screwed with Arizona long enough, Fed's.
You the Federal Government telling us, feed everyone, house everyone, give medical care to everyone, telling Arizona it’s the right thing to do.

When Arizona said to the FED “if it’s the right thing to do, don’t you think you should do the right thing too, why is it you can tell us what to do yet you neglect your responsibilty?

It's not about racism it's about telling the Government to shove it. Quit telling us WE should do this or that; and yet you’re nowhere around, when it’s your time to pick up the tab. Telling the States your broke, you don’t think the Staes are broke?

Arizona telling the Federal Government, you got money for two wars, you got money for tax cuts, you got paid to oversee Wallstreet , but you had no money or resources for Arizona.

Well Feds, come and take care of YOUR problem, if you don't like Arizona’s solution.

Were mad as hell and we ain’t taking no more,

Respectfully

FED UP

So is Arizona supposed to back down, and the Feds will take advantage again?

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Ben

April 25, 2010 7:10 PM in reply to Resistance

The obvious solution here is for a couple of Arizona police officers to start arresting every white person they see on sight and demanding to see proof of their citizenship status. After all, the bill requires police to stop anyone suspected of being an illegal immigrant, and you can't be sure that a white person is definitely an American citizen. Pretty soon, they'll get so pissed off that they'll demand the bill be repealed, because these people hate government as much as they hate foreigners.

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April 25, 2010 8:30 PM

Ben put your money where your mouth is.

If only there were a way to get all of you that wants to support the illegal population to pony up, instead of telling Arizonans, "you foot the entire bill."

Instead it's as I would expect, Talk is cheap.

Why don't you and a bunch of your friends, collect money and invite the illegal’s to your State?

Illustration:

You know like we do with some of our family members, we give our brothers and sisters a respite, taking care of mom and dad. .

Although as a family we do the best we can, sometimes the financial situation changes, and we would call upon the rest of our siblings to step up and help.

So step right up Ben, do your part, were broke; maybe you’re in better shape than we are?

Or would you rather run your mouth about how Arizona should do it alone?

I suppose you’ll want to examine our bank account, or tell us to get a second and third job so we can continue to support them staying here in Arizona.

Maybe you'll just tell us cut Education, cut kids care, cut whatever Ben thinks will make it affordable for us to keep doing the job, you'd rather not do.

Tell us how to do it, so you don't have to?

Give us all your excuses and your insults, “how dare we stop taking care of mom and dad”

Yeah Ben, why aren't you taking care of the illegals if you’re so concerned?

Did I tell you , I called our Uncle Sam, and he failed to return our calls.

In fact the last I heard, Uncle was going to court, to have us Arizonans appointed or forced, as the illegal’s guardians.

Did you and Uncle figure to avoid your responsiblities? Throwing the burden on us here in Arizona?

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Bwakfat

April 25, 2010 10:24 PM in reply to Resistance

This is BS

Arizona is getting $1.05 for every dollar of Federal tax. My state gets 69¢

New York has more illegals and provides more services, but they aren't whining, their solution is to give them state issued IDs so they can receive services like human beings, because they ARE human beings. They acknowledge that the illegals pay taxes and provide services.

Arizona is handling this in the wrong way and for the wrong reasons.

Shame on Arizona.

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April 25, 2010 11:20 PM in reply to Bwakfat

Bwak provide the link, the evidnece to your unsubstantiated claim about Arizona's ratio of return vs New York.

Arizona is run by Republicans and we all know how cheap they are.
Does this ratio reflect expenditures for Federal Land/Reservations does this number reflect expenditures for military bases? Gunnery ranges, Coastguard money?

Without you providing the evidence showing a breakdown of where the Federal money is allocated. I suspect your figures are BS.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html

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Bwakfat

April 26, 2010 7:18 AM in reply to Resistance

I posted the info upthread, so it's hardly unsubstantiated, but here it is again:

You're right, I misquoted the statistics, AZ gets $1.19 back. My state gets 69¢.

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April 26, 2010 4:41 PM

Bwak, don't you think on a serious debate issue, it is a just a little bit disingenuous to use 2005 information?
Is your position so weak you have to resort to misleading information?

Did you find where the Federal money was allocated for?
Mandated Federal programs?.

Remembering:
I had befriended an elderly gentleman when I was younger.
He'd send me to the store to buy him some smokes, back then the storeowner knew the old man was home bound.
The old man would tell me to buy a soda with the rest of the money, except there was never enough.

Unfunded mandates are like unfunded sodas?

No need to respond, this site really slows my computer down.
Something about the script

Next time Bwak

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Tosh

April 26, 2010 6:09 PM

Yeah? You liberals are living in la-la land. I'd love see you put your values to the test and drop you off in the middle of Detroit or Harlem on a hot summer night. You know, one of the neighborhoods where the drive-bys happen right in front of the cop station, and the cops rob the crack heads of their checks. When you get all butchered, raped and messed up, you'll still blame in on Whites because you have been terribly indoctrinated by the Jewish yellow press to hate everything associated with Whites.

Tosh
buy viagra kamagra

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Tosh

April 26, 2010 6:11 PM

The Mexicans are actually much more on my side than you or your fear of others attitude. They trust me & ask my opinion constantly. And I guarantee you that there isn't but a very small percentage, if any, that would begin to have any idea about dispossessing anyone. It kind of makes your argument sound more believable & masks your fears a little though. Overwhelm is another word you're making up & use to try & make yourself look smart about the issue, but proves that you don't have a clue. Hell, you don't even use the "SPAM" term correctly, if not repeatedly. Blogging will get you responses, not guaranteed to please your view responses, but many various responses. Especially when you come from such a racially motivated point of view.
As far as "The Race", it's easy to explain. They are interested in issues that affect their race & try to benefit their own causes, just like all races, or white supremicists in your case.

Tosh
m65 acne

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Leftflank

April 26, 2010 11:05 PM

Listen dimbulb, I'm about as anti-white as you are Auntie Emm.
I absolutely don't believe in your exclusive society crap or share in your fears. You come off as a major pussy.
I realize this is getting deep for you, but any particular race can look out for it's own best interests without being racist. You cannot, & your veiled attempts lasted like a sno-ball in hell. I, cannot condemn what does not exist, despite your making up words, theories & trying to lure me into doing so. That ball won't roll, seriously.
You must realize that you are the original, at least descendent of, immigrant. You mongrel! You phony! How do you live in your own skin?

You've passed on a few subjects to try & change the issue, but it's still the same. You are an intolerant, narrow-minded, fearful, clinging to the past, hateful racist. Deal with it.

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April 26, 2010 11:25 PM in reply to Leftflank

Yeah, well...
I do believe in an exclusive society. Other groups have theirs, so should Whites have ours. Look at Israel, they even go by the name of "the Jewish State". Imagine if we started calling ourselves, "the White United States". You see, I only want for us what other groups have for themselves already. I have no problem with Mexicans, provided that they stay in Mexico. But because they are invading our lands, I do have a problem with them, and I won't hide behind the argument "enforce the law." Even though that's a valid argument on the part of Republicans, this is a racial question.

I realize you've been slapped in the face with a totally different viewpoint than you've been used to, but as member of the White race it behooves you to stand by your own. If one racial group is organizing in order to dispossess you, you have no choice but to join in ethnic solidarity with your own ethnic group. Yeah, it's anti-democratic because in theory we're all supposed to be raceless individuals, but if Whites don't start agitating for our own legitimate ethnic interest we're going to be stomped on because only the black, hispanic and jewish voices are going to be the only ones heard. We need a voice like they have.